|
2 members (Argus, Alduin),
28
guests, and
5
robots. | | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | |
You will need to enable Javascript in order to view the Dice Roller.
| | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 5,072 Likes: 13 Coordinator of Chaos Member |  Coordinator of Chaos Member Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 5,072 Likes: 13 | Which is why I hate Aquas  
Last edited by Miales; Tue 16/04/24 22:16 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 5,072 Likes: 13 Coordinator of Chaos Member | | Coordinator of Chaos Member Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 5,072 Likes: 13 | | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 27,611 Moderator | | Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 27,611 | Cutting off fingers and toes is good, but it's no pushing a troll into a blender. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,482 Likes: 57 Wizop Administrator | | Wizop Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,482 Likes: 57 | I loved Zeim's troll battle tactics!  | | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 | Yes. There's an arm. Why didn't it grow into another Troll? Is it that when a part is chopped off a Troll the only part that regrows is:
- The part with the head?
- The part with the heart?
- The part that contains > 50% of the body mass?
- The parts are able to "move/slither" back together to reattach?
- Other?
I am thinking if all parts grow into new Trolls that an effective tactic for Trolls in combat would be to cut off their fingers and toes and 20 new Trolls appear! Well, it's not the head. RAW, the monster manual says thus: If the monster loses an arm, a leg, or even its head, those dismembered parts can sometimes act with a life of their own. A troll can even reattach severed body parts, untroubled by its momentary disability. Only acid and fire can arrest the regenerative properties of a troll's flesh. directly answers your question with a "well it's not in the rules" but suggests the part with the heart. In 3E the rule actually specified the largest part. Note the detached parts can act with a life of their own, so you could in theory be attacked by the troll's arm separately from the troll itself. Or even the head could bite your legs off. Also reattaching the parts is specified. The attacking limbs/reattaching vs. regrowing is amplified (if the troll regenerates instead of reattaching, the detached limb then dies): Loathsome Limbs: Whenever the troll takes at least 15 slashing damage at one time, roll a d20 to determine what else happens to it:
1-10: Nothing else happens.
11-14: One leg is severed from the troll if it has any legs left.
15- 18: One arm is severed from the troll if it has any arms left.
19-20: The troll is decapitated, but the troll dies only if it can't regenerate.
If it dies, so does the severed head. If the troll finishes a short or long rest without reattaching a severed limb or head, the part regrows. At that point, the severed part dies. Until then, a severed part acts on the troll's initiative and has its own action and movement. A severed part has AC 13, 10 hit points, and the troll's Regeneration trait.
A severed leg is unable to attack and has a speed of 5 feet.
A severed arm has a speed of 5 feet and can make one claw attack on its turn, with disadvantage on the attack roll unless the troll can see the arm and its target. Each time the troll loses an arm, it loses a claw attack.
If its head is severed, the troll loses its bite attack and its body is blinded unless the head can see it. The severed head has a speed of 0 feet and the troll's Keen Smell trait. It can make a bite attack but only against a target in its space.
The troll's speed is halved if it's missing a leg. If it loses both legs, it falls prone. If it has both arms, it can crawl. With only one arm, it can still crawl, but its speed is halved. With no arms or legs, its speed is 0, and it can't benefit from bonuses to speed. As far as regrowing, while it's not specified it seems the best direct rule is the Regenerate spellFor the duration of the spell, the target regains 1 hit point at the start of each of its turns (10 hit points each minute).
The target's severed body members (fingers, legs, tails, and so on), if any, are restored after 2 minutes. If you have the severed part and hold it to the stump, the spell instantaneously causes the limb to knit to the stump. Given 10x faster regeneration, it seems it'd take about 12 seconds for a troll to regenerate an appendage, although I suspect it'd be a DM's call whether it would happen in-combat or after a short rest. Elsewhere on the interwebs, it suggests both halves grow into their own smaller troll. (In which case you could keep subdividing them into smaller and smaller trolls.) Given the "loathsome limbs" specificity that regrowing a limb means the detached one dies, it does seem there is at least a consistency with the laws of physics, e.g., "Conservation of Troll". I'd interpret that in-game as splitting the HP and attacks, etc. between the pieces, so the total troll "stats" are never more than the original. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 | Well, the Reddit thread isn't RAW. It all makes for fun conversation. That's one reason why I only deal with hit points down and never about where wounds are taken. So I just need to deal with those hit points.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 | Well, the Reddit thread isn't RAW. It all makes for fun conversation. That's one reason why I only deal with hit points down and never about where wounds are taken. So I just need to deal with those hit points. Isn't the entire concept of sawing a troll in two just a fun conversation? If it comes up in RP I'll make a real ruling The Loathsome Limbs variant does seem fun and well-defined as a defined monster manual variant. It ties the troll's actual attacks to each of its limbs which can independently use the attacks. So you could have a decapitated armless troll on one side, plus two troll arms and a troll head surrounding you, all attacking with flanking advantage  . And they each have 10hp (which all independently regenerate separate from the regeneration of the troll itself) and only get created with a -15hp hit... Hmm, maybe this giant you're hunting will rip the troll into 4 pieces and attack you with them! | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 | Nep - None of the following is related to you.
I particularly dislike using the phrase "RAW". There really is no such thing. ALL rules are as interpreted (usually by the DM but sometimes by players too). Every person can read what is written in the rules and come to completely different conclusions about what it means, so "RAW" is often nonsense. Worse, I have seen it used in on-line discussion for the sole purpose of trying to shut down conversation and for one person to "prove" he is right. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 | I know how you feel, but I disagree with you. There's a lot of loopholes and there are options in the game but RAW is real. When there are questions, there are also official answers but on rare occasions the official adjudications are inadequate. And when it comes to most interpretations of those rules, Jeremy Crawford is universally accepted as the last word.
DMs can work with the rules is to put an end to debates by saying "this is how I interpret RAW" but that can piss off players who just want to get their way. Because yes, it is used specifically to shut down the conversation arguing which at a table becomes rules lawyering, steals playing time from players and diminishes from the enjoyment of the game.
Here we have OOC and I'm fine with having endless debates because it doesn't cut into the actual play time. But in a FTF games it shouldn't be tolerated.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 | I particularly dislike using the phrase "RAW". There really is no such thing. ALL rules are as interpreted (usually by the DM but sometimes by players too). But that interpretation is exactly "the rules".  At the end of the day, D&D is a game. What’s most important while engaged in these epic roleplaying scenarios is having fun.
Your DM has to make the final decisions on the fate of the characters in your collective imaginary world. They are the authority. Not Wizards of the Coast, the internet, or even fellow players get to make the final call on a rules decision in your own campaign.
Sure, we provide reference materials for setting up your campaigns, but your world is your own to explore and make memories in. Don’t forget to have a good time while doing so. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,482 Likes: 57 Wizop Administrator | | Wizop Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,482 Likes: 57 | I love that picture of pygmy trolls | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 | Nep - If the rules were "RAW" (ie written clearly) there would be no need to send questions to Jeremy Crawford. The simple fact that there is a need for an arbiter proves that "RAW" is nonsense.
Last edited by Zeim; Thu 18/04/24 13:49 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2009 Posts: 15,017 Likes: 10 Chaotic Obfuscator Moderator | | Chaotic Obfuscator Moderator Joined: May 2009 Posts: 15,017 Likes: 10 | Maybe the troll regeneration thing is a question of blood purity. If a troll has regenerated tons, i.e., is a troll with a more diluted blood line, its stuff does what the arm did here.
But maybe a more pure troll could do as Zeim suggests, chop fingers and toss little trolls into the battle.
It could be an interesting way to vary up the base monster "troll".
The other variants take different spots in the spectrum of what a troll regenerates.
I think I have a new version of lore for my game.
Thanks guys!
As far as RAW vs blah, Zeim is right it is a tool used badly in online forums. Most rules are written in a way that several interpretations can obviously be made. That is why I always start with "it is your game..." or your table if you prefer. It is a GM's world, and that should enhance the fun of the game, not shut things down.
And I fall in the camp of RAW or any other interpretation is exactly that, incase that isn't abundantly clear. I have been doing this too long to waste time on unproductive elements. It is about fun, and this discussion is fun in its own way. Part of why I love PBEM/PBP. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 | Zeim, what you are saying is that there are "no laws" and I mean anywhere. Every court has a judge because not everything is black and white and nobody can come up for a rule for everything.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 | It is not that there are no laws, it is that laws are not black and white. There is no "RAW". That is why we have judges, SCOTUS, and so on. So the argument "that is what the law says" is false. The law says what judges interpret it to say. And any two judges can interpret it differently. That is why the practice of "judge shopping" occurs. Not to mention that interpretations change over time as well. What laws do is offer guardrails so society doesn't fall into chaos. You can't have people assaulting others, forex, without being arrested until a judge and jury can decide whether what they did broke the law or not. However that is why there is a phrase "innocent until proven guilty". Otherwise, if everything was black-and-white, there would be no need for judges, juries, or courts. Everyone would simply "know" that a person was guilty of a crime with no need for trial.
Same with "RAW". If it was so clear cut that there was simply no question, as the "RAW" proponents would like you to believe. then there would be no need for Jeremy Crawford (the SCOTUS of D&D) to rule on things.
Last edited by Zeim; Fri 19/04/24 12:59 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,061 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator | | Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,061 Likes: 9 | I suffered another surprise defeat to my low-level newbie party yesterday. So if you recall, this party was 1st-level when they defeated the CR 3 manticore at Umbrage Hill ( Dragon of Icespire Peak). The party is now 2nd-level dwarf fighter, human rogue, halfling ranger and a tabaxi druid has replaced the half-elf bard, and yesterday they tackled Axeholm, balanced for 5th-level characters. There they were roughed up quite badly by the ghouls, having depleted most of their healing by the time they encountered the CR4 banshee. The banshee's DC13 horrifying visage only overcame the druid, then the DC13 wail only dropped the ranger. Meanwhile, both characters with the magic weapons, the fighter and the rogue were dishing out big damage numbers, including a huge critical sneak attack from the rogue. The banshee did finally drop the fighter with a crit, which was nice but too late to turn the tide. The banshee was vanquished by a final bolt. Like the manticore it was close and could've gone much worse, depending on those saves. But it struck me that it would've been a breeze for a 5th-level party. It's worked out well so far, so do you think I should keep pushing the PCs into these higher level adventures or am I veering toward a TPK? | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,116 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,116 Likes: 5 | Depends on what people want. Are they looking for a real challenge or more into 'playing' the characters??
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,061 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator | | Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,061 Likes: 9 | They're school kids so they aren't into brow-beating role-play, but they do seem to like a good mix of role-play, adventuring and combat. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,960 Likes: 1 | What I've found is that as PCs go up levels, the monsters don't keep up. I've played around with it over the past few years and the XP values just don't make sense. To give you an example, I'm running Rime of the Frostmaiden and the party is supposed to fight a goddess at 7th level. That's a problem. So yeah, keep pushing the PCs. PCs need to get worried during a deadly encounter.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 | Also remember the point is to have fun, and the pcs don't know the monster's stats, so there is nothing that says a 50 HP monster can't suddenly gain 50 extra HPs mid-combat if the group is having too easy a time of it or rolling very well. Maybe they have a ring of Heal with one charge on it that they use and then crumbles to dust? | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,116 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,116 Likes: 5 | Zeim, I would rather have 'back ups' arrive rather than changing the stats mid combat. But, hey, that's just me <weg>
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,321 Likes: 13 | I think if they have a ring, they'd use it to deploy some offensive allies rather than just heal themselves and extend the slog of battle.
Particularly if I had a fire giant who was being attacked by a party of 10 level 7's.
But that's just me <weg> | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,128 Likes: 8 | Yeah, adding re-enforcement to the battle is another option. I just find that doing that mid-combat requires more careful adjudication than simply bumping up the main foe a little. | | |
| There are no members with birthdays on this day. | | |
Posts: 5,158 Joined: May 2014
| | | Forums103 Topics2,838 Posts140,645 Members177 | | Most Online296
Jan 19th, 2020 | | | S | M | T | W | T | F | S | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | | 28 | 29 | 30 | | | | | | |
|
