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Wolf #862455 Fri 30/09/16 16:02 UTC
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Wolf - according to your post the rock is:

It was at the least eight to ten people high

That is barely 50 feet, maybe 100 if you are being generous. You can walk up stairs that high in literally 2 minutes.

Wolf #862456 Fri 30/09/16 16:14 UTC
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On one hand... sorry, guys... you should have figured it out. I know *I* have tried to make a point of indicating it takes a while for Keiko to get up and down. The distance from the Mill to the ground is twice the height of the Victorian-style Naylor Manor when looking out the attic window... so, rough guestimate about 100 feet. Plus all the switchbacks will add time. And the Millhouse is about halfway from the ground to the tower, so that's 200 feet of elevation. Give or take. (And just when I thought I had Super OCD Working on another project... sigh.) More switchbacks. Stone steps that are not equal in either the risers or the threads... slow going.

On the other hand... in giving the height of the rock, Wolf sorely miscalculated the height of people. Maybe he was thinking about giants.

Also, no one is going to walk up those stairs quickly. Not even the uber-dexterous and fleet of foot Keiko. Those stairs are UNEVEN AS ALL GET OUT.

Let's just have fun at dinner, eh? At least you guys are GETTING dinner! Missus Miller is known to be rather gruff... Keiko might have to share her dinner with Lyric. (Cuz who can say no to a Lady of Attera, right?)


"Everything is bad except unicorns." -- Phoebe
Wolf #862463 Fri 30/09/16 17:17 UTC
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No issues. Just confused about why we couldn't climb up a set of stairs a couple of hundred feet high in a few minutes and still be back for dinner. I've climbed mountains 12,000 feet high in a few hours (and yes, base camp was at 9,000 feet, but that is still 3,000 feet of elevation without the benefit of a staircase in 2 hours, and carrying a backpack).

So the only problem was we'd agreed to join Kadri's dinner invite and then suddenly it was past time.

Last edited by Zeim; Fri 30/09/16 17:19 UTC.
Wolf #862466 Fri 30/09/16 17:35 UTC
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Because... The Heartwood?

Reality is different there. Sometimes, even most of the time, it's frighteningly the same. And so we forget that it's quite different. Trust me, my butt's been bitten by that different reality of the Heartwood.

(As a female person who has experienced two pregnancies, I still want to throttle the GM for insisting that human physiology is the same as ours while at the same time insisting that a 225-day pregnancy is considered "full term." Sorry, Charlie... that's a preemie.

So I have to suspend belief about how babies are made, which is just has hard for me as you having to suspend belief about how rocks are climbed. As I sang earlier, ♪ welcome to my world... ♪)


And as the GM rightly pointed out, it's not Kadri's dinner.

It's Missus Heatherson's dinner. And Missus Heatherson didn't invite you. (Or Kadri either, for that matter. But Nobles can get away with such things.)

Kadri invited all of you to Missus Heatherson's dinner. Which was very, very rude of Kadri.

So let's all rejoice that the GM saved Lord Tone-Deaf's wife from some embarrassment, eh?


"Everything is bad except unicorns." -- Phoebe
Wolf #862470 Fri 30/09/16 18:18 UTC
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Tell me when we move on and I'll come back in then.

Wolf #862471 Fri 30/09/16 18:20 UTC
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<eyes Art suspiciously>

Um. It's a family household, yes. The Heatherson family. Not Kadri's family or Dominic's family. They are the common folks who live here. Dominic is the Lord of the Manor (that doesn't actually exist). So... there's that aspect of interpersonal relations going on.

From what I know of Dominic, and certainly what Keiko has learned of Dominic, it would absolutely not point to any implication of ownership on his part. Although, to be fair, that would be a Korie trait... for a Korie who isn't Dommie. Or probably Tray. It's more a matter of stewardship. His relationship with the people of Waverider's Watch and the Forest Kin would be seen as a much more Allaine way of dealing with people. "We are here to serve the people" is something Daxia has heard both Linnell and Kisa say regularly.

Oh, the lad is a Korie, that's true. But his way of dealing with people is much more Allaine. (Which probably annoys his father the Khorall and his brother the Heir, but Tray is likely rather proud of the lad.)

Your intentions were spot on... your choice of location was not. And it could be chalked up to the fact that Kadri doesn't know and understand her husband as well as she thought. Interesting, isn't it, the implications a marriage of convenience can have? There will be opportunities to change that. Just saying.

But now Kadri will have had the opportunity to get to know some of the people Dommie cares about. And the guys will be doing Guy Things at the tower. If Kadri is charming and endearing with the Heathersons, word of that will spread like wildfire. "Oh, our Lord's Lady wife is so sweet! Didn't she just have the young one giggling at her stories? And even my husband was won over by her charms, so it's good she's married to our Lord. And she even offered to help clean up! I nearly fell over at that, I surely did!"

It would have been a far different story spreading like wildfire if everyone squeezed into the Heathersons' home. The story would not have been as nice. You have a better story playing out, even if it's playing out in the background.


Perspective.


[Edited to add: And this is what happens when you delete your post after I've read it and written a response.]



Last edited by Kel; Fri 30/09/16 18:22 UTC. Reason: adding a note

"Everything is bad except unicorns." -- Phoebe
Wolf #862474 Fri 30/09/16 19:11 UTC
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As it's been decided that whatever their intentions they will be late or not present at all, I guess I'll roll with it ...

Last edited by Art in the Blood; Fri 30/09/16 20:20 UTC.
Wolf #862497 Fri 30/09/16 23:31 UTC
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I had no idea we were causing trouble like this... I'm not all that familiar with the layout here and was just trying to get Pietro settled in...

Like Zeim said, I thought we would be up and down the stairs and then to dinner within a reasonable time.

Wolf #862506 Fri 30/09/16 23:58 UTC
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i don't know if i'm happy or unhappy that I spent most of the day giving an AIA presentation ...

Wolf #862509 Sat 01/10/16 00:00 UTC
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i just finished a day at legoland california... and i found it rather apropos when we moved from one 'land' to another at the park and there was one transition that we made going both ways... first up then later down... and since we were pushing a 3 year old in a stroller we had to take the large walk and make about 6 switchbacks... in each direction... instead of taking the more direct steps up and down.

wow that seemingly took us 'forever' to make those switchbacks.

Just saying... it takes longer than you might think (or longer than the seeming actual distance would otherwise dictate), especially if you are carrying anything like gear... and what of Lyric's rucksack which was being carried by Djinni? Lyric didn't get it before she was ushered off to a new thread.

Wolf #862513 Sat 01/10/16 00:08 UTC
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Still would have preferred a pm poke or something that that was what I was about to do because there was no way in hell Kadri would do that with any intention. It would be pretty much exactly opposite to who she is.

Wolf #862526 Sat 01/10/16 01:16 UTC
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I thought Lyric did retrieve her rucksack from Djinni's saddle? Did she not?

Wolf #862529 Sat 01/10/16 01:27 UTC
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Nope- her rucksack was on Djinni, slung over the horn- september 21 was the posting date and i read back. I never made the move to have Lyric grab her stuff since it seemed so sudden that keiko was pulling her away to join her. Hence Lyric's plaintive gesture to Pietro to find her later.

Wolf #862531 Sat 01/10/16 01:35 UTC
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Ah... neither he nor I picked up on the reason for her gesture. smile

Wolf #862532 Sat 01/10/16 01:47 UTC
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well either he is carrying her pack up those steps as well as his own when he noticed it still hanging on his horse- or her stuff- including her mandolin is in the 'stable' or whatever serves as one in this village.

that will be for pietro to determine and i will go from there.

Wolf #862536 Sat 01/10/16 02:26 UTC
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I have now gone back and re-read the Waverider’s Watch thread for the third time. I even mapped out the messages by number and date to ensure I did not miss any posted action by the players.

From a gamemaster’s point of view all I found was:

(A) One character talking about taking an action but not saying they were actually going to do it. In subsequent posts, the player reiterated that they were intending to take the action but provided no description of how they were going about doing so.

(B) One character deciding to take a different series of actions with no acknowledgment of the first character’s action. This character was then joined by two other characters, still without any acknowledgment towards the intention of the first character’s desires.

We are not even going to get into the length of time it takes to get from point A to point B, because after reading Phoenix’s post, I realized we are quickly heading into “African or European swallow” territory. The only thing that matters is that it took some amount of time to get from A to B and in that time Missus Heatherson was able to set her dinner, which she could easily accomplish because she had begun that “commoner’s” task while everyone was still dealing with their horses.

As the gamemaster, all I have to go on is what is posted. I can do many things, but one of the things I both cannot and should not do is run a character for a player... nor can I assume that some action is or is not in-character for that character — the only one who can determine that is the character’s player. I also may have many skills, but mind reading isn’t one of them. This means that unless I get a question from the player, all I have to go by is what is posted in the thread.

If there is a disconnect between intent and actions taken, if there is miscoordination between players, the first place to start is your posts. I’m not perfect and have made many errors and mistranslations of intent. In this case, every time I go back over the posts, I keep returning to the same consequences for your actions. If the posts had had more content, had better described your intentions and coordinated your actions with each other, the resolution would have been significantly closer to your expectations.

Take a look at Art’s subsequent post for Kadri — #862473. In this post she engages the native characters, her intentions are both much clearer and in-character. This is a post that will have a much more successful resolution than one line with no back-up. And it gives me, as a gamemaster, actual content to respond to. This also worked better for Mikal previously.

As the gamemaster, I would also suggest being a bit more flexible. While there is a value in trying to maintain your original intent, often — as a scene plays out — these conditions change, and new information becomes available (such as Kel’s reading on the current feelings in the village). You may wish to consider the possible consequences of your actions before taking them. In my own play I am constantly making mid-course corrections for my characters, I've never believed there's anything wrong with that.

Wolf #862544 Sat 01/10/16 09:38 UTC
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I have no problem with considering consequences f actions IF those actions are made with all of the knowledge that the CHARACTER would have. I play the character. I am not, however, myself the character and do not necessarily have time to do a full study of every past post before posting. Consequences of actions are only meaningful if they are consequences made with knowledge. Having stayed a night, if it was just someone's house and not something that operated like a manor I'm pretty sure she would have realized it.

Again, I have no problem whatever taking consequences for actions, but I want to at least know the details at the character would know going into it and not have to be a detective to figure them out. There is some value to original intent. There is more value to not violating something pretty core to the character based off a misunderstanding of a bit of information she would likely have had but the player didn't pick up on. As playing the character but not through their eyes of necessity actions are taken on detail coming 'through a gIass darkly' so to speak. I like the long posts, I really do, but sometimes they ARE rather dense with detail and it's easy to miss something and a nudge on missing a detail comes in very handy

'This is just someone's house and she might have trouble arranging that'.

Or at least had a choice point to realize it much earlier in the evening to alter course and try to make other arrangements and said to Pietro 'silly me, I have no facilities to get a proper meal here, let me delay a day and I'll try to figure something out tomorrow."

Likewise at some point in their journey, Pietro and Mikal likely would have at least figured out it was taking longer than they expected and possibly made a choice to either hurry it up or turn back or continue.

Just a request, ok, and I'm dropping it. The occasional 'turning back point' or memory nudge. I do ask questions. I have long message threads of asks. But you can ask a question you didn't know was a question to be asked. Presuming there were facilities to whip up something simple wether through some sort of staff or just paying someone a few coins didn't seem that weird of a supposition.'you would be barging in and forcing someone's own daughters off their dinner table' would seem notable. I used the vaguer 'make arrangements' because I'm not aware of those details myself and figured, worst comes to worst a quick trip to the market.

Again I'm done with this and moving on at this point, but my two cents and the source of some frustration regarding the consequences bit is the bull rushing past the no return point on them without a turn back opportunity. Just a brief short 'you look around and all you can find is missus Heatherson' would have prompted a dramatically different approach at that point.

Last edited by Art in the Blood; Sat 01/10/16 10:10 UTC.
Wolf #862555 Sat 01/10/16 13:57 UTC
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I have other issues with HWD. I know that folks are very keen to post when first starting out with new characters.. and I know my being away for a few days didn't help.. but all Cesare has done today is eaten a kebab. I feel sidelined and I don't feel I have a role in this game. Maybe my fault. sad All of you guys are in the same time zone where I am not, it makes life difficult. Plus we have too many OOC posts for my liking. And I have a stinking cold right now which is not improving my mood. wink

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One reason
I want to draw Cesare into a dinner thread so he can get some concentrated screen time.

Wolf #862569 Sat 01/10/16 18:10 UTC
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This isn’t the first time this little problem has cropped up in HWD. I still have Super OCD Woman’s spreadsheet from the Long Ago Times that kept track of who posted when.

I’m not going there again. One, because I don’t need the stress. Two, because technically, we’re all adults.

In the past three months, I’ve put more time and effort into “behind the scenes” work on this game than I’ve put into my own writing. That is not a complaint; it’s a statement of fact. I’ve said this privately, but I might as well say it publically, too. I love this world and care about it every bit as much as the GM does. He and I don’t always see eye to eye on things, but at the core of every discussion — whether it be the friendly discussions about various NPCs and locales or the knock down, drag out arguments that make my head explode and have me looking for my mallets — is my deep commitment to the world of the Heartwood and my belief that we have barely scratched the surface of the possibilities the environment holds.

The Heartwood, whether I like it or not, is important to me.

If it weren't so important, I wouldn’t proofread the GM’s posts so the players have the best possible chance of understanding exactly what he meant in each post. If it weren't so important, I wouldn’t spend countless hours talking to other players in PM to answer questions and help resolve issues.

Regarding Gypsy’s point, I’m feeling the same sense of being out of sync. Rather than being in two time zones (Gyspy and The Rest of Us) that are five hours apart, with the addition of two players and my move to California, we’re now spread across four time zones (Gypsy, Most of You, Jim and Me) that span an eight hour time difference. I used to be able to post from work, and then I was unemployed and could post anytime I wanted to post. Now it’s much more difficult to post from work, and that will only be worse over the next few months.

Let’s review those simple guidelines:

  • If one character is having a discussion with an NPC or two characters are holding a conversation, go to town... post as much as you like.
  • Once you get three or more characters in a scene (not to be confused with a thread), let everyone have their say before the cycle starts again.

Granted, there will be exceptions. If someone is away from the computer for an extended period of time and can’t post, at least remember that their character is in the same physical space. Nivek claims his character is a sidekick and has said never to wait on him.

(On a lighter note, both Gypsy’s character and my character recently got overrun. Now, I know the Rhoni have some fair amount of stealthiness, but neither one of us cast the spell that would make the rest of you think we’re not there. wink)

To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven

Sometimes you need to look at the details. Sometimes you need to step back and see the big picture.

Sometimes you need to just trust the GM. (If you’re not sure you’re in one of those times, just ask me. If *I* trust the GM, you can trust the GM... because my default setting is to not trust the GM. He’s twisted and a little evil (but mostly twisted). However, if he’s answered all my questions (and I ask them incessantly) or has given me a good reason why he can’t answer them... I’ll trust him. For that round.)

There is one absolute truth among us... the players and the GM: We are humans (or we’re aliens among you trying to blend in). We are going to make mistakes. We are going to have good days, and we are going to have bad days. There is going to be miscommunication... even by yours truly, the avowed Word Nerd.

<takes off HWD player hat; puts on Writing Facilitator hat>

In this message-based environment, we need to be cognizant that words matter. Yes, we all know that what we say matters, as does how we say it. But we also need to remember that our characters’ words matter just as much. And what we write (or don’t write) for our characters matters.

If a player does not have their character speaking, then how are the other players and characters (and the GM) supposed to know what their opinion is on the matter at hand? What their intentions are? How will the other character even get to know the newcomers until they speak? (And for the record, Keiko has been at Waverider’s Watch longer than any of you. YOU are all the newcomers. smile) Keeping everything to internal dialog is a dangerous path to take. At best, if a player has the highest integrity (and remember... we’re all human), it can create awkward situations. At the worst... well, it can range from hurt feelings to the desire to introduce telepathic abilities where they don’t belong on the Heartwood.

(Side note: As the Writing Facilitator in a forum one section over, I specialize in Weird Metaphysical Stuff. If telepath abilities are going to show up where they don’t belong, I’ve already warned the GM that it’s going to be with Daxia and/or Keiko. Just saying.)

What will work in a face-to-face tabletop game is not going to translate well to the message-based world. I’ve been a player and a DM/GM on both sides of the screen. Sitting around the living room table, I could tell from DCDP’s weird gesticulations as he tried not to choke from swallowing sideways too much Diet Coke what he wanted his character to do. I could tell from the way Jeff tried not to smile and the glint in his eyes that he was sending us into a dungeon of orcs wielding puns instead of battleaxes.

In my efforts to introduce the concept of collaborative writing to Truthseeker, I sent more emails in the beginning that said things like, “How is Shia supposed to respond to Bryan when he never asked her a question? She’s many things; a telepath is not one of them.” Or “You realize, don’t you, that for all his thinking, Bryan is still standing in the middle of the street, right? Good thing it’s a side street, eh?”

The same applies to message-based roleplaying games. While the GM has an overview of everything that’s happening in the world, in the area, in the tiny village, it’s up to us to tell the story of our characters.

Bekkah, Cesare, Kadri, and Mikal have been together for nearly a year. They know one another very well, and may even consider one another to be family.

Lyric and Pietro met yesterday on the road and have at least begun to form a friendship.

Keiko has been in the village for over two months and knows the villagers and the Forest Kin better than anyone. She met Kadri and Mikal briefly two nights ago. She met Bekkah and was offended by Cesare yesterday. She met Lyric and Pietro today.

Each character has a unique perspective on the world around them and the people (both player characters and native characters) who intersect their lives. Because we are the Player Characters, it would be reasonable to assume that we should find a way to all be on the same page. While we all have different goals for our characters and have reasons for being at Waverider’s Watch, it would be reasonable to assume that we can find a way to work together to achieve our individual goals and any goals the group sets as a whole.

Do not discount the importance of the native characters of Waverider’s Watch and the Forest, for they are Keiko’s friends, her allies. The native characters are every bit as “real” as the player characters... they just have different constraints in what they can and cannot do.

From a storytelling point of view, it’s not the numbers on our stat sheets that are important but the way we bring our characters to life.

(Speaking of stats... veteran players, if you care about stats, you should check your sheets.)

From a storytelling point of view, we have all the right elements: We have a story arc (creation of Mikal’s Dragoons). We have obstacles to overcome (something wicked lurks within the Forest). We have interpersonal relationships (personally, I’d love to have entirely too much fun with Gypsy). And we have each person’s individual motivations (what drives each character to continue toward their personal goals, and why would they want to be part of this group anyway?).

When writing a story, everything comes out of the brain and onto the page (or screen). And then the revisions come... the many painstaking and painful revisions. Whole scenes get cut. Beloved characters are told to take a hike... to wait for their story to be told at some other time.

From a storytelling point of view, the GM played fast and loose with the dinner scenes because the dinner itself is not significant. Well then, what is significant? Dama Kadri (at this point) is most of the way to convincing the Heathersons (and by extension and by way of gossip the rest of the Village) that she is probably just as good as their beloved Lord Dominic. The new Squire got to meet the eccentric guards of the Tower. Keiko has offered a way for Lyric to be welcome in the Village.

End scene.

Long Post Day is tomorrow when the GM will write about the consequences of our actions to this point and (hopefully) set up another scene in which we can tell our stories in the coming week.

<takes off Writing Facilitator hat; puts HWD player hat back on>

One of the most frequent points of friction between the GM and me is the fact that I am more of a writer than a roleplayer. (Just friction... not to the point of pulling out the mallets or anything. Maybe seething frustration is a better term. But I digress.) Collaborative writing (for me) is one of the best ways to write a story. So, I’m not actually playing a game here in HWD, I’m helping to write a story. Our story.

There are forests, and there are trees. Sometimes it’s good to inspect each and every tree. Sometimes it’s good to fly above the forest and see the whole of it. (This weekend is the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta. Oh, to be there!)

Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who.

— End Scene —


"Everything is bad except unicorns." -- Phoebe
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Nothing has happened which has upset me. The eccentric guards miffed Pietro somewhat, but not to the point where it would keep him up at night or tempt him to resort to violence.

I did not mean for Pietro to just desert Kadri... it is just something that happened when I - perhaps - was not paying quite close enough attention.

I hate it that Gypsy felt her character was left out or written around, but I was not sure what to do since I knew she was going to be out of touch for several days and, in cases such as that, I tend to rely on the GM to ghost for that character so my character can interact somewhat. I am not likely to have my character to walk up to a character and begin a dialogue or interaction when I know that character's player is not available to respond.

There... that's all I have to say at the moment.

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Apologies, Gypsy, if you felt run over. I also knew you were going to be away and just went ahead with Pietro presuming you'd chime in when you got back. If we ignored you it wasn't intentional.

As to the rest, to be brief and I'll be done as well, I know it is no surprise to Wolf and Kel but I agree with Art.

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Guys.. no issues with any of you. My fundamental problems with Cesare go back much further. Talking to the GM to see if we can find a resolution. Thanks! smile

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Well, Mikal had always intended for Cesare (along with Darian back at the time) to lead the Scouts of the Troop. But that is my quest. If Cesare has other ideas no issues.

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Happy with that Zeim, trying to resolve an earlier issue. smile

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