DreamLyrics™ Play-by-Post Forums Hall of Fame - Latest Top 10 completed games HHE: The Haunted Helm OOC: Drizzle

It has been an entertaining and unique experience for me so far.

Well ... not enjoying the low rolling so much <chuckle> But I am liking how this is all playing out. Very interesting!!

And thanks for taking the time to help us get to know the game!

Overall it's been very interesting. Seems like an intensive amount of work for the DM to do all the rolling and results generating for both the party and the monsters. Much appreciated, but lots of work.

That's another interesting point, Zeim. I think comparing 13th Age to D&D 3rd Ed, that I used in TVS (and did the rolling again), I can say it requires significantly less dice rolls overall, and less head-scratching with 5 foot steps, AoO, reach, etc.

In tabletop play, the players would need to pay close attention to what's happening, since success depends far more on the party working as a team.

But if the GM was just handling his side of things, it'd be easier for him than it ever has been in D&D. NPCs and enemies not rolling damage speeds up resolution, for example.

MikeD, as a word of warning, I am using the official D&D Dice Roller again.

I doubt that there would be quite as much DM work in a f2f game, but if we tried to 'recreate' that f2f feel here, we would still be in character creation mode <chuckle>

Aye, that is true!

OK, edited the notes to show Zoltan's PD 13.

Neptune, Jex doesn't have Soundburst as one of his spells. He has Befuddle, Charm, and from his jack of all spells, Chaos Bolt.

However, since you've taken over the character and Jex has only cast Chaos Bolt previously, I can allow a quick rework of Befuddle and Charm, if you so desire.

Thematically, I don't think the spell choice is essential to Jex. You might even say a variety of types is most thematically correct for the character.

I would probably not take charm myself but let's go with Befuddle. I'll change the post.

As for the rolling, it does seem like a lot of work. BTW, that's why I do not like D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. At higher levels the game becomes way too unmanageable. In 5th ed, there's an option to use base damage now and I do use that for monsters.

Neal - If you were not rolling for the pcs I'd agree it's overall less work.

I do kind of miss tactical maps, though. Even if it doesn't matter for purposes of ranges it give a much better feel for the combat and combatants tactics and positioning. At least for me.

Yeah, I sometimes miss maps for combat too, Zeim. But I ran a lot of 5th at Gencon this year, and not one group in the dozen or so tables I ran asked to use maps, so it seems like we are in the minority <shrug>

Funny, MikeD. Every table I played at used tactical maps and figurines at Gencon.

Well I suspect that is partly because you had a lot of the same players ... right? And most of them would have been 3rd and 4th ed players, right? If I had been playing in those circumstances I would likely have voted for maps too. I =do= like them, especially for higher level play when the combats tend to be a lot more complicated.

At the tables I ran, it was up to the players. I had all the maps ready to go <g> Most (probably 2/3 of them) said they were new to D&D in general, the other third had played earlier versions and a =lot= of them were 'refugees' from 2nd ed <g>

Yeah, I can see brand new players who had never played any prior versions thinking that tactical maps would add complexity and vote not to use them.

And while I actually had about half my tables were the same players and the other half were different, they were all, generally, experienced.

Leaving for business trip. Don't expect to be on-line again until Sunday 10/4.

Roger that, Zeim.

So we have another round, and despite the write-up, looking behind the scenes reveals abysmal rolling across the board. Frankly, it's a miracle anyone achieved anything in that round.

It was a good demonstration of the Escalation Dice mechanic though. Now it's set to 5, with the bonus from Bless too, most of the PCs have a +6 to hit on top of their normal modifiers.

Regarding tactical maps/battle mats, I think they only add to a game if the system's designed to use them. With D&D's wargaming roots, I'd say most versions are aided by a tactical map, but 13th Age has been designed explicitly not to use tactical maps.

Hence, you don't have to employ detailed positional tactics to get the most of our the system. A general intention will usually suffice, and the decisions are more about which powers you'll use and who you'll use them against. Fundamentally, it's very similar to a JRPG in that respect.

About tactical maps. When Zeim and I started playing D&D together in the days of yore we didn't use tactical maps. That whole thing cropped up at about the time we transitioned to 2nd edition. So it's not part of the AD&D heritage for us. I view tactical combat as a complicated chess game and that adds a dimension to the game. But it's not for everybody and for some the complication is a negative.

I started with the original 'chainmail' ... using the xerox copy of a few pages of 8 1/2 x 11 a friend had way back in the early 70's I have played every version since. I saw the use of mats become more common as the game got more complicated. As players and monsters started acquiring more and more 'feats', 'powers', 'effects' and the like, the need to know where everyone was located became more important.

One of the ideas for 5th Ed was that by backing off on some of that, the use of maps would be less important. Hence the emphasis on 'theater of the mind'.

I have played both sides of the coin for a long time. I can honestly say it really depends upon the feel one wants for the game. Probably 80% of what I run doesn't have a map, or at worst a quick sketch. But I do enjoy the war gaming aspect of moving around on a map. So...

Yeah, most of the players I've met enjoy tactical maps/battle maps, the war gaming aspect of RPGs, and they all seem to enjoy theatre of the mind aspect too.

I've met one or two who really loath the war gaming aspect, but they're not keen on gamistry at all and are hardcore role-players (rather than role-playing gamers).

Me, I will literally play anything you stick in front of me, and probably enjoy it too.

Although we've been playtesting and talking about D&D and 13th Age here, neither of them are well suited to message gaming imo. I think any system with player dice rolling will be flawed, because the mechanics will require the player to make probability based decisions according to the situation at the start of their turn.

In a message game, you can't resolve one turn at a time, it'd take too long, so the players' decide according to the situation at the start of the round, and the GM mashes it together with best interests of the players in mind, like a combat computer.

So, our second encounter draws to a close, but what have we learned about 13th Age from this?

We'll first take a more in-depth look at the numbers and consider any conclusions that can be made. Then I'll give you the notes I took whilst running the combat.


Hero____Kills___Dmg_____Best____Heal=>__Heal<=
J.......2.......43......16......2.......1
W.......4.......60......15...............
S.......5.......110.....22..............1
He......1.......36......12...............
Al......1.......8.......4................
D.......2.......58......24..............1
N.......1.......8.......5.......3........
Z.......1.......86......17...............
T.......1.......55......28......1.......3
Key
Kills: Total number of enemies killed
Dmg: Total damage dealt
Best: Single highest damage attack
Heal=> Recoveries granted
Heal<= Recoveries received

No surprise that Seyja with Barbarian Rage had the highest total damage. She rolled consistently around average on damage, but it was rolling twice to hit and increased crit chance from Barbarian Rage that turned her into a death machine.

Unfortunately we can't learn much from this, as Barbarian Rage is a once per adventure power. However, we can say with some certainty, don't rely on Seyja being as dominant in the next combat.

Interestingly, Weston got four times more kills than Zoltan, but Zoltan did nearly 30 hp more damage in total. This shows how kills aren't the most useful metric in D&D and 13th Age. It's a vagary of initiative and the combat lotto. The only reason Seyja got 5 kills is because she killed 3 mooks in her first attack. (Zoltan would have done too, if they weren't dead already.)

But Zoltan was burning through his Smite Evil, using 4 in total. Next combat he'll have only 1 available, so we can expect Seyja, Weston and Zoltan to be doing around the same damage.

Surprisingly, the top two single attacks didn't come from Seyja or Zoltan, but from Tindarien (28) and D (24). That requires decent rolling, yes, but it also shows the importance of fully utilising sorcerer and rogue powers.

Tindarien's 28 damage came from his Lightning Fork, btw. However, nothing could prepare us for a natural 20 (double damage) followed by a natural 1 (no damage).

Tindarien also required the most healing. This was largley due to him teleporting out of the fray to avoid opportunity attacks while he was casting. This put him in the path of the orc reinforcements.

Given the broken terrain, there wasn't much he could do. Yes, he could have teleported to an unassailable position, but that would've also prevented him rejoining the fray if need be. Players generally don't risk being isolated like that.

High single attack damage is particularly well suited to mook mobs, so remarkably, D's 24 suggests that the rogue might be very good for massacring a mob, not just the traditional single high value target. Since Shadow Walk gives him freedom of the battlefield, I'm thinking if you're ever in a battle with a mob of mook archers at range, shadow walking D into their midst would be effective.

Even more effective against a mook mob would be Tindarien's Lightning Fork with Gathered Power. By gathering power for a round, Tindarien would do double damage with his Lightning Fork. Surplus damage would flash over to the mob, but the spell could also chain to another mook in the mob, and the damage it sustained could flash over. Annihilation!

Nestaron's damage was pretty pathetic. He's built for healing and keeping the paty alive, and these things he did very well. (See comments in above post about Invocation of Community versus Orcs.)

Jex is the unsung hero (pardon the pun). His damage output was actually decent, and during the early rounds his Song of Heroes bolstered the party's attacks until the Escalation Dice took over. He also dished out healing and prevented the Orc Chieftain from using his Battle Curse again.

Still, it strikes me how reliant the 13th Age party is on teamwork. It's integral to success, and tbh, I like that. A mechanical reason and more importantly a reward for the PCs co-operating.

Finally, Heilbutt and Almador. NPCs don't benefit from the party's buffs or the Escalation Dice. They have decent base stats, but their main role is evidently tying up enemies.

OK, let's quickly go through my notes.

JEX
Charm spell. If you want to change it, that's absolutely fine. Lemme know. Also, Jex's melee is great fun, as it can triggers battle cries that help other PCs. Very novel.

WESTON
I think the trick with the longbow maybe to wait until the third round and the Escalation Dice at 2. In the first two rounds, its attack bonus is quite low compared to Weston's longsword.

SEYJA
She didn't get a chance to use many of her other powers, but that seems to be because they mostly come into effect when she's not Raging.

D
Avoiding hits is crucial, since D needs to retain Momentum. Maybe using Tumble to Disengage and then Shadow Walking should be used throughout combat.

NESTARON
He mustn't be allowed to fight orcs again!! It's cheating!

ZOLTAN
He's used 4 Smite Evil, so he only has a freebies left (1/battle). He rolled below average in the combat, yet still managed such a high damage output. I think paladins might be one of the highest damage dealers (not including spellcasters). Combined with their high AC, they're a formidable tank.

TINDARIEN
Gathered Power is only useful on Lightning Fork. I noticed that Tindarien has Chaos Bolt and Scorching Ray, and they're actually quite similar. (It seems the ideal might be a multi-target spell, a single target spell, and a breath weapon spell. Rather than 1 multi-target and 2 single target. YMMV.)

You do have Feather Fall though. If you wanted to swap it for a wizard spell with more oomph, go ahead; that is the main benefit of the Arcane Heritage.

Hmmm ... define 'quite low'. According to my sheet, the difference is just +1 better for the sword. Am I missing something?

And for the record, even though I seem to have gotten the credit for 4 kills, I doubt that I did the majority of damage to more than one of them <g>

Other than that, an awesome wrap up Neil. Thanks. Very helpful. Hopefully we will cake walk the next combat <gd&r lmao>

As a note, Barbarian rage is once per day. I know this adventure isn't likely to last longer than a day, but... Also there is still the chance of a free recharge on a 16+. So she isn't completely spent, yet. Likely, but... Also what about the free rage after escalation die at 4+? Still possible?

Good notes on the combat. This is my first time playing a rogue. Can you tell my last character was a barbarian? Good to know more about how choice and momentum go seriously together.
Thanks

Aye, MikeD. As I say, body count probably isn't a very insightful metric in D&D or 13th Age. Pretty much all it tells you is who did the last 1 hp damage to an enemy. Btw, Weston's at +5 to hit with his sword, +3 to hit with his bow.

But even the basic numbers we've looked at show that every PC was important to combat. NPCs? Heilbutt was half-decent, probably because he was using the orc 17-20 crit range... Almador, well, he was really just a meat shield. But hey, it's a niche!

Daily powers require a "Full Heal-Up" to recharge. A Full Heal-Up generally entails your Last Homely House/Waystation/Tavern situation, where you can get a hot meal and a bath, and tend to your needs. At the very least, it's finding shelter and spending the day foraging, hunting, repairing equipment and resting, etc.

So Daily powers don't recharge with the day/night cycle.

Taking the faster path by the river will give you the option of a Full Heal-Up, but it will make the final encounter more dire.

Seyja could net a free recharge of Barbarian Rage, on a roll of 13+, so it's not guaranteed. We'll cover everyone's recharges in the next round. Recharging on the Escalation Dice 4+ is a feat, an improved version of the power. (Seyja has an improved version of Barbaric Cleave, however, not Barbarian Rage.)

Rogues seem to be quite a cerebral class, very chess-like, you have to pay close attention to your current turn and your next turn, and so on. I think you've played him very well so far, Pandemonium. More heroically than most rogues tend to be played, but I like that, it's characterful.

A note on the encounter itself. It was actually two encounters, merged into one.

You have the first battle from the main rule book, vs 6 goblin scum(mooks), 4 goblin grunts and 2 goblin shamans. Recommended for a party of 7 1st-level characters.

The Haunted Helm is a short adventure, as written, so basically, I have few chances to really test the party's mettle in combat.

But I remembered how you rampaged through the zombies in the opening chapter, and the Icon Relationships foreshadowed an encounter with the Orc Lord's minions. So I looked at the official 2-hour 13th Age demo.

3 orc warriors, 2 orc berserkers and 1 orc shaman, as recommended for 5 2nd-level characters.

I wanted to wait until the 6 mooks were off the table before bringing in the orcs, to avoid melting the dice. I waited until the goblin shamans were off the table before bring in the orc shaman, because too many overlapping, ongoing effects would melt my brain.

How did I know the party wouldn't get massacred? Well, I spoke to Rossi720, who'd been running a 13th Age campaign, and he said he'd found the published encounters always too easy. I also read the writer's notes on the 2-hour demo, which stated the orc encounter would be easy for 2nd-level characters if the players worked together, and the GM should toss in an extra orc berserker or lizardman if that were the case.

This all suggested a 1st-level party could triumph if they worked together, but they'd be stretched.

Anyway, the end result is, your party of 7 1st-level PCs and 2 NPCs just fought a 1st-level encounter and 2nd-level encounter, back to back.

9 vs 18, 2:1 odds, and you emerged victorious. Not bad for poxy 1st-level D&D characters!

Alas, you lost good old Halibut the Barbarian.

Now you've had your first taste of 13th Age combat, what do you think?