DreamLyrics™ Play-by-Post Forums Hall of Fame - Latest Top 10 completed games LMP: Lost Mines of Phandelver OOC thread

One other thing. All of the rules discussions on this topic have one thing in common, with which I agree. You have to have something to hide behind to get the Stealth advantage in most cases. Yes, if the enemy isn't alert and you make no noise you might be able to sneak up on them, but in the case of the current encounter, with a warned and alert enemy who is hiding and watching the cavern entrance carefully, you cannot walk into the room, thru the cave entrance they are all watching, and stand next to the fire, in the open, and not be seen. No matter what you roll on your stealth check. Lingo is an exception as he has the ability to hide behind Bern, but Bern really should have been seen by all the enemies. We'll leave it be for now as we're in mid-melee but common sense should rule.

Lingo also gets his "sneak" damage when attacking an enemy that is adjacent to an ally of Lingo's.

Yeah, sorry Zeim, I didn't specifically include that part. I agree that, if you are doing 'individual' surprise, the wolf is in trouble once it attacks. The question for me is ... would the wolf have enough intelligence to know that it should wait for best effect. Hell, I am not sure that the bugbear would have =that= much smarts <chuckle>

Yes, agreed. My heartburn comes from the rule that says "If you are surprised you cannot move, attack, or react". It doesn't specify "if you are surprised by ALL foes" then you can't move, act, or react. It almost implies that in order to be surprised you MUST be surprised by ALL foes. So what happens if you are surprised by SOME foes? Or does that rule mean that Surprise is all or nothing?

How many people waiting in ambush need to make their presence obvious before the trap is sprung before people notice the danger from that position?

Ah, but what if there are 3 foes and one remains in hiding while two attack? Sure you see those two, but the third one springs out at you just as your back it turned, and should have surprise, no?

Zeim,

That is the point of that first option ... where it is party vs party ... it is =much= easier to adjudicate <wink>

I came to some conclusions about surprise and hiding that I want to share.

Surprise is a global thing for a PC.

If a PC sees even 1 enemy, he is able to act in the round and is not surprised even if other enemies are stealthy and hidden. The PC cannot attack a hidden creature but he gets to act in the round. If the enemy emerges from hiding and attacks, he can be attacked by PC's that have not yet acted that round.

The bugbear (as an example) has an ability to dole out extra damage if he surprises an enemy. I'm interpreting that the same way as a rogue's sneak dice. It really should be worded differently. So, if the bugbear stays hidden, and the party attacks the goblins it's sees, the bugbear would get that extra damage if it attacked an unsuspecting PC. BTW, that bugbear would also roll with advantage.

Anyway, that's how I'm running it because it makes sense to me.

Agree with that. How do you deal, though with a situation where the pcs see 1 out of 3 enemies, so they are not surprised and can act, but can only see one foe. The first pc kills that foe. The rest can act, but can't see anyone. What do they do? Just delay?

I am still liking this approach I posted earlier:

"Much cleaner to have a single group stealth roll for the side trying to sneak/hide, and individual PPs to see who is surprised and who is not for the other side. And if both are trying to stealth then you have both sides make a single group stealth roll (with worst adjustment from both sides) and whoever rolls highest has surprise over the other. Tie no one does. Perhaps if you don't win by at least 5 no one does?"

In the case where some in a group are being stealthy and others are not I think I am going to rule if the ones trying to be stealthy are not far enough ahead to avoid being exposed by the others with them who are being noisy, they lose their stealthiness. Probably one move distance (30 feet) away. You can always try to hide as long as there are things to hide behind, but for surprise you can't be walking right next to a rattling tank and expect no one to notice.

Yeah, delay. They think they're done. In fact, they probably are letting down their guard so I would roll another stealth for the enemy and if they don't give themselves away, I would grant surprise again.

I would tend to go with Neptune's version of this if I was running, but that is a personal opinion. I think that Zeim's take is =just= as 'valid' an interpretation of the rules and, FWIW, I am quite OK with using that variation here <g>

I think I said the same thing as Nep, MikeD. Other than the situation where both groups are trying to be stealthy at the same time. Otherwise what Nep said and what I said are the same (or at least they are in my mind, though some have said I am not in my right mind <g>).

OK, a few people are making Skill checks incorrectly. All of your Skills are based on one of your stats. See the jpeg below. On the pc sheet it lists which Skill applies to each Skill. Perception and Insight are "Wisdom" based skills. That means you add your Wisdom adjustment to any roll you make for those skills. You also get to add your proficiency bonus if you are Proficient in that Skill. So, for example, with a Wisdom of 16 (+3 adjustment) if you make a Perception roll it is:

1d20+3 or 1d20+5 (if you are Proficient in Perception and your Proficiency modifier is +2).

I have noted that on many of the pc sheets people have only listed the skills they are trained in, and seem to be assuming that they get no adjustment to any other skill. That is incorrect.

You get to add your Stat adjustment to EVERY skill. Certain skills use different Stats. Some use Str, some Dex, some Wis, some Int, and some Cha. Interestingly none use Con.

So, if your Int is 12, you get a +1 to any Skill roll based on Int.

I would really recommend that everyone edit their pc sheet in the Gallery and list every Skill with the appropriate modifier (Stat bonus + Prof bonus if proficient)

Zeim,

OK ... I read it a bit different between you and Nep, but that is ok ... I am OK with either version (as I interpreted the GM rulings) <g>

Also, FWIW, I am pretty sure that the sheet I sent you had all the listed skills showing those I was proficient in. Let me know if that is not the case.

Zeim,

I have added all those skills to my character sheet in the Gallery along with the modifiers.

Now, do you want me to re-roll for perception and insight or just add the modifiers to the results I got using only the 1d20's?

No. We will use your rolls. Just wanted you to be aware you got a +3 modifier to all checks based on Wisdom.

I Think Jaliera's are OK.. but then I did model her sheet on Kallista's as you suggested Zeim.

Can I use my Guidance cantrip on my own character to help with a climbing roll?

Unless it specifically says you can't I don't see why not.

Dugan> Yes. Of course. It's an action so you could cast it and move (climb) but you would not be able to attack or cast another spell that round.

I decided to bring the Initiative discussion over here to get it out of the game thread.

As much as I like the new D&D, they seem to have gone to exceptional lengths to make it difficult to find/figure stuff out <sigh>

So the question at hand was about initiative and whether it got your 'proficiency' bonus. It seems comes down to whether you are 'proficient' in initiative as a skill. Sadly, even after I read through the stuff in a couple of places a couple of times I could not find a definitive answer.

=But= the seems to =Imply= that you treat it as a simple Dex check, no proficiency bonus.

My 'confusion' on the subject comes from past versions where initiative improved base on level ... hence my assumption that it improved. If you assume it is a straight Dex Check, then a dexy 1st level could have the advantage over a seasoned professional of ... say 10th level ... which seems counter intuitive to me and contrary to past thinking.

Comments encouraged <g>

Well, it can improve as you go up levels IF you spend the points you get every 4 levels to improve your Dex Stat. A 10th level pc has a much better chance of having a higher Dex than a 1st level pc does. A higher Dex means a better Dex bonus which carries to Initiative.

Now naturally a 1st level Rogue who makes Dex his highest starting stat might have a better Initiative than a 10th level cleric who focuses on improving his Wisdom. But I don't necessarily see a problem with that.

I actually understand not using a Prof bonus for Initiative. Initiative does not seem like the kind of thing that can be improved by training, like Stealth, Medicine, Arcana, or any of the other Skills. Initiative is effectively "Reaction Time", which is based mostly on your raw Dexterity.

I agree with Zeim. Even comparing two characters of the same profession, I do not see a problem having a level 1 rogue winning initiative over a level 10 rogue. Sure, it should be uncommon that it will happen, but if a player wanted, for example a smarter rogue than a dexterous one and spent more points on Int than Dex, so be it.

Actually, I don't 'dislike' the idea. It was my confusion based on the 'change' the new version brought to the table that had me confused ... that and the difficulty in 'nailing that down' in the ... IMHO ... poorly organized PHB <g>

Mike, the "Basic Rules" PDF is very clear, IMO, about initiative and has it exactly where I would expect it, as one of the first things discussed, right after surprise.

Some abilities, like a thief reflexes at 17th level, can enhance it ... but there are not many such things. By the way, that's one of the big pluses of 5e over 4e IMO. 4e was all about giving players a way to buff their character. It's a lot harder in 4e.