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#1021952 Mon 15/11/21 16:08 UTC
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nem Offline
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Some are calling it D&D 5.5 but we won't know for sure until much closer to the time.

Either way, a new edition is coming.

https://screenrant.com/dungeons-dragons-dnd-5-5-updates-changes-release-date/

Let's talk shop, for anyone who has an interest! jk

I'm not an avid fan of D&D but I think 5e might be the best edition I've played and I've played them all.

It does have some flaws, imo, such as Dexterity-builds being too optimal and all abilities leading to the same effect, Advantage. But overall it's pretty straightforward.

I think there are better, non-official versions of D&D, like 13th Age and Shadow of the Demon Lord, written by D&D designers, but who knows what direction Wizards will take.

Right now the main thing that concerns me is players who've invested heavily in D&D Beyond, Roll20 and other 5e online platforms, spending hundreds on digital content.

Will they be asked to fork out again for this next edition? Most likely.

Now I don't mind giving customers a valid reason to spend more money on a game they love. Everyone wins. So I'm not against monetisation per se.

What I don't like is when monetisation influences the game design, making a game harder to play unless more is spent on it.

Or when prices are so stupendously high, the publishers are clearly whale-fishing. Fine if you're a whale but all the minnows are barred.

What do you all think?

Have Wizards done a good job with D&D 5e and D&D Beyond, for example?

Should the 2024 edition be 5.5 or 6, a whole new edition?






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FWIW, just because there is a new version of a game ... doesn't mean there is anything wrong with any of the previous versions. I know people that are still playing the older editions and enjoying it <vbg>


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nem Offline
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For sure. Each edition has its own charms and quirks.

From what I've played of 5e, it could certainly do with a few tweaks now that enough people have played it to identify the flaws. But I'm not sure I'd even call that 5.5. I'd probably just call it 5e 2024, since it'd still be 5th Edition but as-of 2024.

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Well ... I don't really care =what= they 'call' it <weg> I just care whether it is an improvement ... or not <shrug>


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nem Offline
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Agreed, absoluetly. What I mean to say is that 5.5 suggests a new version, cue new versions of all the supplements like WotC did with 3.5. But it seems to me that 5e is fine, just in need of a few tweaks to the core rules, and if they did that they'd only need update the core rule books.

Of course if they want to start from scratch again with a new version, a version 6 if you will, then fair enough. I guess I just don't like the idea of a halfway house. wink

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I guess =someone= will just have to buy a copy, read it, see what is different ... and let us all know <weg>


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nem Offline
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Nice one, MikeD! grin

<Looks at Gypsy>

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I have not invested too far into 4e or 5e because I went fully into 3e and more into 3.5 and Pathfinder. And also because I realize they will just keep putting out new editions so what's the point to catch up. I just got a Players Handbook for each of those so I had enough to play. Then I spun up a D&D Beyond account and while I appreciated it, I got really annoyed that it didn't cover all the elements of the PH. It had like... 85% unless I bought more into the Beyond account.

I have a creaky old-school version of HeroLab to manage my Pathfinder campaign and honestly at the rate this Adventure Path (Reign of Winter) is going (which I don't really mind) this is probably going to be the last campaign I run with my main group. grin We've been crawling for over a year just to get to the end of the second of six modules. Literally, we've been on the same in-game day since December 2020. We play monthly, remote.

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I think that's a popular request so far, Vryx: To have the new PHB come with a product key inside that you can enter into D&D Beyond and get access to the complete digital volume, for example.

At present, you have to buy the PHB hard copy for 30 quid, then 30 quid for the digital version on D&D Beyond. Then if you want to share that PHB with your players, so they can use it to create characters on D&D Beyond you have to pay 6 quid a month!!

Of course, no-one forces a group to use D&D Beyond but the issue isn't players don't want to support Wizards, it's more that the price of supporting Wizards is too high.

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First about Vryx's about the annoyance with D&D Beyond. D&D isn't free. The stuff Vryx is complaining about is how they make money so I have no complaints there. Where I do have a complaint is (like Nem) that if I bought the hard cover books, I shouldn't have to buy another set of books on Roll20, D&D Beyond, etc.

D&D 5e was released in 2014 - 7 years ago. The new version will be released 10 years later. Also, this new version will be backward compatible with 5e. That's why it's being called 5.5e.

I simply HATED 3.5 because it was a complicated, supercharged "Monty Haul" game and 4e wasn't D&D. 5e is brilliant and sales validate that statement. The game was streamlined and the authors addressed most of the issues of prior editions. There are things I would love to add and tweak.
  • More character paths and character options.
  • An official battle system for those of us that like that sort of stuff
  • More varied minor magic items
  • Clearer explanations of how hiding and invisibility work (it makes no sense that stealth is better than invisibility to me)
  • More tricks and traps defined for specific party levels
  • I never understood why monster challenge ratings scale like this: 0, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Why not start counting at 1 like real people. Oh, and why not have that CR correspond to average party level?
  • While they're at that, how about random encounter tables by party level?
  • More weapons and different capabilities. Include firearms, laser beams, etc. (I understand tech will be added for Spelljammer modules)
  • Perhaps add secondary personality attributes such as comeliness, luck, honor, reputation and loyalty.
  • A better use of factions. There should be optional benefits that come at the expense of other benefits. A real hierarchy and progression, like with character levels, As an example, Zhentarim get a +1 to stealth, -1 to persuasion, +1 to intimidation. I would have these as optional feats available only to members of specific factions.
  • More roleplaying options like non-combat encounters with XP values
  • Feats are optional in 5e and cost a points in prime attributes. I think you should start with one and get another one at every tier (there are 4) as you go up in levels.
  • Speaking of levels. They can go higher. What level is a god?
  • Better definition of monster sizes and shapes. Is a Cyclops the same shape as a T-rex? According to 5e they are.
  • A much clearer way to scale encounters (the current math is insane).


Those are just some of my thoughts but the #1 thought is that all these are tweaks to an already excellent game.

Last edited by Neptune; Wed 17/11/21 20:49 UTC.

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I guess 3.5 is why I posted this topic, to some extent, Neptune. When I hear "5.5" I think "3.5" and that just makes me shudder. After all, 3.5 was touted as being backwards compatible with 3.0 but it turned out to be disingenuous. There were just too many moving parts to that system.

Nonetheless, I'm optimistic about 5.5. I think the current version could do with a tune-up. Like the Ranger class, frex. So many people use the Unearthed Arcana Ranger, might as well just fix it in the core rules.

I also like the idea of initiative being divorced from Dexterity. I mean, you could just say "add your best modifier" for initiative, since you can explain it by any attribute:

Str = How fast you can move your muscles
Dex = How quick your reflexes are
Con = How ready and energised your body is
Int = How quick thinking you are
Wis = How well you anticipate the next few seconds
Cha = How sure you are of your self

All these things play a part in "how quickly you act" and since a PC or monster's best modifier will often be the same (+3), you could just have a flat d20 roll, no modifiers for all it matters.

Then if a player wants to be The One Who Goes First, there's always the Alert Feat that gives +5.

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Agree with all the points. I happened to like 3.5, but that might be because I tend to run "off the cuff". I have no issue scaling encounters because I don't use the math or a table. I just look at how the encounter is going and if I want it to be tougher, guess what? New monster re-enforcements suddenly appear. Or they get more HPs than normal.

The inherent rules contradictions and exceptions in 3.5 were definitely a PITA though. Especially if your group of players are all 'Rules Lawyers'. How do you resolve a defense that makes the first attack "always miss" when it comes up against a benefit that makes your first attack "always hit", forex?

I suspect one of the reasons they came up with a mathematical formulae for things like scaling, btw, was people complained there were too many tables in 3.5 (and while 5e is different, in overall feel it is more of a return to 3e than it is building on 4e) and for those who are 'imagination challenged' they feel there's not enough variety and after playing for a while you get the same Random Encounters and same Random Treasure over and over.

BTW, Zhu (in Nep's Game) has taken Alert, but more for the "Never Surprised" benefit than the +5 to Initiative. Which, btw, has proven to be a Rules Contradiction just like we saw in 3.5 already. We ran into an creature that "always has surprise", yet Zhu has a defense that makes her "never surprised".

I think Nep ruled on it properly by following the same procedure as you use for Advantage. Those two benefits just cancel each other out.

Last edited by Zeim; Thu 18/11/21 14:24 UTC.
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Neptune Offline OP
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Running a game here is different than running a FTF game. Zeim and I come from the same DM school (we taught each other). I run off the cuff too and ignore the "math". I look at a stat block and know instinctively whether it's tough or easy for my players. But easy math is for novice DMs that don't realize that a 1st level party shouldn't square off against an ancient red dragon or that 10,000 kobolds don't stand a chance against a single 20th level fighter.

It's interesting to note that ENworld is publishing an "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 5e" game that they're selling. I'm wondering if the response by WOTC is to combat that? This will give you a flavor for that unofficial game:
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition



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I'm a diehard 13th Age fan myself and it's had only one edition. Mechanically it's more like D&D 4e than 5e, coming from 4e designer Rob Heinsoo. Shadow of the Demon Lord is another excellent derivative, of 5e this time, coming from 5e designer Robert J. Schwalb.

I think they both offer very strong alternatives to D&D 5e, in mechanics and default setting.

I wonder what Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition's USP will be? Will it be a refinement of existing rules or just another layer on top?

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Originally Posted by Neptune
First about Vryx's about the annoyance with D&D Beyond. D&D isn't free. The stuff Vryx is complaining about is how they make money so I have no complaints there. Where I do have a complaint is (like Nem) that if I bought the hard cover books, I shouldn't have to buy another set of books on Roll20, D&D Beyond, etc.


Apologies if I was unclear. My annoyance was the same as yours and Nem's. Since I'd bought the hardcover book, I felt like I should have access to the digital version of that content as well.

Why I enjoy 3.5 is with the breadth of material, there's always a lot of interesting interpretation discussion about when one rule touches another.

Why I hate 3.5 is with the breadth of material, there's always a lot of interesting interpretation discussion about when one rule touches another.

Last edited by Vryx; Thu 18/11/21 17:39 UTC. Reason: added love of 3.5
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For me it has =ALWAYS= been more about the GM than the 'version'. A good GM can set things so that 'the rules' take a back seat to 'the play'.


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and it is easy enough for them to do (to answer Vryx), but again it cuts off a potential revenue stream.

Last edited by Zeim; Thu 18/11/21 18:23 UTC.
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Here's a Q. Do you all think there's a justifiable reason for charging for the PDF if you already have the hard copy?

For example, maybe there would be a cost to Wizards in implementing and administering a printed product key that would have to be added to the price of the physical book. So to keep the price of the physical book down, they charge for the PDF if someone wants to buy it.

If so, must price of the PDF be equal to that of the physical book? Are Wizards saying that for every PDF sold, they must cover the loss of the sale of a physical book?

Being in a commercial business myself, I find this interesting but it does seem to me that even if Wizards didn't want to incur the cost of printed product keys, their pricing of the PDF is too high, bearing in mind you still have to pay a monthly sub to actually use its content on D&D Beyond.

It has the whiff of sharp practice to me.

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No. It is actually taking advantage of the community. You should get a Code to input into any "Official" D&D website to gain access to any hard copy book you've purchased. I can see charging a nominal fee (like maybe $1) for a PDF, IF, you've already purchased the hard copy.

Problem for them is people sharing/stealing that key, but I think they can figure out a way for you to register and password protect it, to mitigate that.

Of course this cuts dramatically into their current revenue stream, and as long as people are willing to pay it it won't stop.

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The 'cost' to develop the 'content' is independent of whether is it printed or electronic.

It certainly costs more for the printed materials. There is the paper and such, printing costs, shipping and distribution costs and so on. But the 'electronic' version also has costs ... server, hosting and bandwidth all cost money too ... and they cost even when you are not selling them <g>


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Neptune Offline OP
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Here's how it's easily done:

Go into a local store where they sell the books with your books. Obtain a rebate sticker with a unique code online. Use the rebate code to get the book on places like Roll20 and D&D Beyond. The code is not reusable. It is locked into your account. If you want to download a pdf, log on to DMs Guild and do likewise

This is easy to do. They need to want to do it.


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They have no incentive, as long as people keep paying.

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Sadly true. Though I fear the unseen consequence is that D&D---once the gateway to tabletop role-playing gaming---becomes less accessible to the poorer in society. They will have the physical books still at least but for the younger, online generation, the pricing might been seen as a bar to entry.

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Here's an idea, IF they are interested in the issue you describe. Establish a charity process where players can donate their used books, modules, and other gaming material they no longer need and WoTC can create a marketplace where those in need can obtain those materials free of charge (or maybe just paying shipping charges).

Seems like a win win. Costs WoTC nothing if we assume the receivers of this charity would not be able to purchase it on their own, and you'd think the good press/goodwill gained would offset the small cost of managing a small web app and the process. Not to mention spreading the game to a wider audience, some of whom may buy in the future.

Of course I can hear the cynics now saying that people who can afford to buy will take advantage of free stuff.

Last edited by Zeim; Sun 21/11/21 15:20 UTC.
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There are used book stores that do that already Zeim <g>


MikeD
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