DreamLyrics™ Play-by-Post Forums Fantasy SKT: The Storm King's Thunder OOC thread

Nep - Your first section is wrong. You basically wrote that you can cast a Cantrip without it being any sort of action. You can cast a Cantrip, but casting ANYTTHING takes an action of some sort (Bonus Action, Regular Action, Reaction, or Action Surge). It is not a Free Action.

Without the Action Surge or Reaction, if you want to cast a regular spell and a Cantrip in the same round you can only:

- cast a Cantrip using your full action
- cast normal spell using your Bonus Action.

You can't cast a Cantrip using your Bonus Action as no Cantrips are BA type spells.

Also since all BA spells are movement related that is all you can do that way (ie cannot cast a damage type spell and a damage type Cantrip in the same round without a Reaction or Special Ability).

I love it! This gives you a chance to see how this (evil) DM thinks....

A crossbow bolt into the mud might reallllllly scare the horse. And let's say it did. Hmmmm. Is the horse spooked? It should get a save. Ok. Let's say it fails that save and IS spooked. Which way does it run? Random direction, I would think. Time to roll a 1d8. A roll of a 1 is directly north. If it goes west into the web, it's going to run into Boris and if it gets through Boris, trample Sindar. So the only roll on that d8 is 8, which is north-west into the only part of the web that's available.


Hold your horses!!!
From the Web spell description:

So it gets a Dex save.


I'm not sure where you are moving to. Please confirm that my understanding of your move is correctly illustrated in the attachment.

Zeim,
I'm not wrong...

Full action cantrip
Bonus action spell
Action surge spell

That's how it works. Check the link from Jeremy Crawford. That's how I run it.

That's not what you wrote. Go back and look.


According to what you wrote, the Cantrip doesn't cost an Action at all. It is just a freebie. The Cantrip has to be the "full action spell" since there are no BA Cantrips.

If you're going to run it that way, that's cool. I'll start casting a free Cantrip, a BA spell, and a full action spell every round. But I presume you meant to write in the first message what you ended up writing in the second message.


That I agree is correct.

Zeim, you added (inferred) the word "free". However, to make my previous post clearer, I amended it.

Not really, but not worth arguing about it anymore.

Nep:
Zeim:
I will agree is correct is that both of you, as experienced DMs, can run it that way, and I'm trying to learn from your decades of wisdom.

However, you are both arguing this point only from "action" economy. And the Jeremy Crawford tweet explicitly says that the use of two spells with actions (Action Surge) has nothing to do with the "rule on bonus action spells". I agree with all this from an "action" perspective.

But the BA rule is from a "turn" perspective.

Your examples seem counter to that exact BA rule which the tweet says does apply, since your sequence includes a Bonus action spell:
And that rule (PHB p. 202) states that:
I'm less experienced, and I already am aware through PMs that Zeim has a house rule otherwise. But I interpret the rule as saying it is not allowed. To me, You can’t cast another [non-cantrip] spell during the same turn seems pretty clear. Key words: same turn. No matter how many actions you have.

I find it interesting that the rule starts out with a note that it is "especially swift". Why would they bother to put that there? To highlight that BA Spells are unique from "most spells" in some way... perhaps they take that much more magical energy in the space-time continuum.

Action Surge kind of says to me [hey, take these things that normally take 6 seconds, and you can do them in 3 seconds, therefore you can do two of them]. I get that.

A Bonus action is not like that.. it's [hey, this thing is so powerful it happens almost instantly, never even close to 3 or 6 seconds... but it takes up so much of your magical energy you can only do these less magical things that don't consume spell slots during a 6 second period. Not even a 3-second spell.]

Crawford's tweet (officially non-authoritative), is essentially repeated in Sage Advice (authoritative) which still does not clearly state that it overrides the PHB rule as it both highlights the action economy with "action surge" and refers to "most spells" and then explicitly notes that bonus action spells have a different limit:
TLDR:

It is my interpretation that the BA rule ("limit" in the words of sage advice) applies to the "same turn" regardless of action economy and all this tweet/sage advice is just clarifying that you can cast two spells using Action Surge, as long as you don't use a spell as a bonus action. But once you use a spell as a bonus action on a turn, you can't cast any other spell except a cantrip, on that turn.

And that's how I plan to run my group.

Are you clearly stating that while you're DM'ing, the "bonus action" rule on casting another spell only refers to your "regular" action and that the additional action provided by Action Surge allows you to cast both an action non-cantrip spell and bonus action (non-cantrip) spell on the same turn despite a clear statement in the PHB otherwise?

I thought it was clear. Once you put all the rules together and the logical limits (no BA Cantrips exist forex), you end up with what Nep posted:

1 - If using a single spell then any spell during the RA. If you choose a BA spell then you can do something else during your RA if you don't want to cast a spell (melee attack forex).

2 - If trying to cast a second spell in a round then:

BA - a non-cantrip BA type spell (since there are no BA Cantrips)
RA - a Cantrip only (due to the limit of only a Cantrip allowed as a second spell if not using Meta Magic or Action Surge)

3 - If trying to cast 3 spells in a round using an Action Surge then:

BA - a non-cantrip spell (since there are no BA Cantrips)
RA - a Cantrip only (due to the limit of only a Cantrip allowed as a second spell)
Action Surge - any type of spell, Cantrip or full action

4 - If using Meta Magic to shorten casting time:

BA - a regular full action spell (shortened to a BA thru use of Meta Magic)
RA - a Cantrip only (due to the limit of only a Cantrip allowed as a second spell)

Note that the benefit of Meta Magic is that you are not limited to only a BA type of spell during the BA.

To you after decades of play, maybe.

Your 1, 2, and 4 examples are in line with my interpretation "if you cast a BA spell you can't cast another non-cantrip spell on your turn"

In your example 3 you imply Action Surge is an exception to that rule.

Nowhere in any rule or description does it say that Action Surge changes the rules in any way. Action Surge just lets you take 2 actions and a possible bonus action on your turn. It increases your number of actions. That's it.


It uses the words "regular" and "additional" for context, but they don't have any special meaning and aren't referred to elsewhere.

The "BA Rule" says that if you cast a spell as a BA, you can't cast another (non-cantrip) spell during the same turn. It does not say you can't cast another spell as your "regular action" which would mean the "additional action" was exempt. The restriction is turn-based, not "regular action" based.


No, because once you use a spell as a BA you can't do any non-cantrip spell on that turn. Period. Option 3 violates that rule.

If you have Action Surge, your choices are:
1: Two (full) spells as actions, and a non-spell bonus action (since no BA cantrips exist because BA spells are super-special)
2. One (full) spell as a bonus action, and 2 of either a non-spell, or cantrip, or one of each, as actions.

Bonus Action Spells are particularly special and different. They have their own rule that applies no matter how many other actions you have.

Again... I understand as an experienced DM you (and Nep) know whether and how this house rule changes encounters at your table. It may be more fun, even. I fully support as long as all the players are aware of the rule and it's applied consistently.

I'm still new enough that when I DM I'm going to rely heavily on the existing balance in the rules as I interpret them. Maybe one day when I have a better feel of deadly vs. easy for my players, I'll come around to your point of view.

From Jeremy Crawford on the question of allowing 3 spells to be cast using Action Surge:


Meaning no BA spell, then you can cast two regular spells using Action Surge. If you use a BA for a full spell, then you can still cast two more spells if you use an Action Surge but they both must be Cantrips.

So the limit of a BA Spell, then a FA Cantrip, does not preclude the Action Surge spell, however it implies the Action Surge spell would also have to be a Cantrip.

Note the comment about many DMs finding the rule incongruous and changing it.

Yes, this is exactly what I have said in my choices 1 and 2 above.

This is not what combination 3 in your previous comment, or the trio you and Nep agreed to in previous comments had, though; it had BA (full spell) an Action Surge also full spell.

And I fully support your and Nep's house rule to do so. You have the experience to balance an encounter to counter it, and/or know your players' strategies better.

Me, I don't want a level 5 character (2 fighter + 3 wizard) to be the only one at the table who can both Misty Step and cast Scorching Ray on their turn. A full-on wizard can't gain the ability to do the equivalent of that combination (technically multiple turns) until level 17 with Time Stop.

You have to take into account that the dual class pc has given up the benefits of focusing their levels in a single class. They're usually doing it to gain benefits from their second class that helps their primary class. To compare to the pc in your example, as a single class they could be a Sorcerer 5th level who uses Meta Magic (to compare to the Action Surge) and could cast an 8d6 Fireball plus a 2D10 Firebolt in a single turn.

As Jeremy Crawford points out, the rules are incongruous. The Action surge rule says you gain the ability to do any action you could normally do with your action, including casting a spell, yet there is a different rule about casting multiple spells in a round that limits it to one FA Spell and then Cantrips. So which one overrides the other? Up to the DM.

BTW, in the new rules they have created a new Action Type called a "Magic Action" specifically to deal with these sorts of things.

Aqua, my ruling is RAW, not a house rule. Not every person interprets rules the same way, which is why I often turn to Jeremy Crawford, the game designer, for his take.

You are entitled to make your own house rules, of course.

Nep - Reading Crawford's reply still leaves a question. He is clear that using Action Surge you can cast 2 non-cantrip spells in a turn (if you DO NOT cast a BA) and that the BA rule (only Cantrips if you cast a full action BA spell) only applies if you cast a BA, so does that mean that if you do use a BA spell and then you use your regular action for a cantrip, that if you now also use an Action Surge you are limited to using a Cantrip on your Action Surge or does it mean a regular spell on your BA, a Cantrip on your normal action, and then another normal spell on your Action Surge?

Even Crawford's "RAW" description is ambiguous. He looks at the two situations independently but doesn't describe what happens when you combine everything. He first says you can cast two regular spells if you use Action Surge and then separately says that the BA rule about Cantrip only applies if you cast a BA, but then stops before the last step of putting both of those rules together.

It does not seem ambiguous to me.

It does not seem ambiguous to me.

Regular moves: Full action cantrip, Bonus action spell.
Action surge: Anything you want to do.

Yet he specifically states that the Bonus Action Rule (any spell cast in a round after using a Bonus Action can ONLY be a Cantrip) applies. So that would mean Action Surge can only be a Cantrip if you use a BA. If you want two regular spells by using an Action Surge you can do it, just do not use a BA spell that round. If you want three spells in a round you can also do it, but one must be a BA and that means the other two (including using Action Surge) must be Cantrips.

He specifically says:

Action surge is a defined as a specific exception.Here he repeats a major D&D rule - that specific always beats a general rule when they conflict

You keep posting quotes from Jeremy Crawford that don't address the issue. No one is contesting that you can't cast a second normal spell using an Action Surge, overcoming the rule about only a single normal spell in a round. What is at question is if you use a BA to cast a BA spell and then cast a Cantrip with your normal action, and THEN use an Action Surge in the same round is that 3rd spell a regular spell or only a Cantrip? One rule says any action including a normal spell and a second rule says Cantrip only. They're both fairly specific rules.

FOREX, from a rules board:
IOW, using an Action Surge, the choice would seem to be either:

A) 1 BA and 2 Cantrips OR
B) no BA and 2 Normal Spells

Action surge is a specific exception to the "typical turn" spell casting limit based on "casting times".

Action surge specifically identifies that you can take two actions and a possible bonus action on your turn.

If you don't use a spell as a bonus action, there is no limit on what you can do with your two actions. Two spells, two attacks, one of each, mix in dash, dodge, ready action, whatever. Cool. Two actions instead of the usual one.

But, if you use a bonus action spell then the specific "Bonus Action Spell Rule" (also) applies, saying that if you use a bonus action spell you can't do another non-cantrip spell on your turn. You can still take two (other) actions (a specific exception to the rule), but it adds a more specific limit on what they (both) can (not) be.

It does not say you can't do a non-cantrip spell "as your regular action" in which case it wouldn't apply to the Action Surge "additional action". It specifically says on your turn which means it applies to both your regular and additional actions, which also occur on your turn.

That is not in any way ambiguous.

Feel free as DM to define a house rule otherwise. That specific rule beats all the rules.

This is exactly why the concept of "RAW' is BS. RAW is whatever you interpret it to be. Rules conflict everywhere (including 'official' Rule boards) and most rules are wide open to different interpretations. Three of us read the exact same set of rules, including explanations from Jeremy Crawford, and come to three different conclusions. Almost nothing is black-and-white. Just like the Monster that "always has surprise" (like a Mimic) versus the PC who is "never surprised" (with the Alert Feat). It should all just be "DM's call". There's no arguing that. Nep can play it anyway he likes, as can I or Aqua. If Nep says it's DM's call there is no argument. Once you start saying "RAW" you're going down a rabbit hole.

I only see two different conclusions, Nep's (which you agreed with here) and mine (which you agreed with here).

The only disagreement is whether the "additional action" is subject to the BA rule when the conditions for that rule are met.

And in your agreement with mine, you acknowledge that is how the rule reads but that "DMs [find] the rule incongruous and [change] it."

Whatever it is, it should be consistently applied by a DM from the beginning rather than being a "DM ruling" that could differ throughout the campaign.

Yes, I was likely wrong in the first link. Wrote too quickly. Of course much of it is related to the comment that "specific rules override general rules" and is the "BA means only Cantrips" a specific rule or a general rule? I can see it either way.

Consistency by a DM is important, but each DM can determine for himself how he wants to run different rules in his game. I use the "Short Rest" rule as an example of another House Rule Nep and I use. My main point is we need to just stop saying "RAW" as if that should end the discussion as there is no such thing. There is an entire category of Jobs to address what a written Rule/Law means. Thousands of Lawyers, Judges, and Courts. What a rule says is much less important than what a rule means, and those can be two completely different things. If the DM says "I play it this way in my game", then end of discussion.

LOL.
I stopped using the "Short rest" home-brew rule.

In the 2014 DMG there were something in the neighborhood of 100 optional rules. I use one here, the flanking rule, which is not RAW. But they are RAW options. Note that feats are optional rules I use too. Note that the 2024 DMG got rid/omitted all of those options. For instance, there is flanking rule in DnD5e.2024

But in terms of the 1000 or so pages of rules that exist amidst the various tomes, I don't memorize them all but I do look them up and rule based on how I interpret the wording. It's rare that there's no clear answer.

I spent way too long preparing for the Fire Giant encounter trying to research what the rules had about things burning.

Very little, actually. Seems by the rules, most adventurers and their gear are fireproof.