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| | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator |  (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | As I said, Aqua, you're doing a great job DMing. I've DMed for 40+ years and I've learned a few things I didn't know from you. | | | | | Joined: May 2009 Posts: 16,804 Likes: 16 Chaotic Obfuscator Moderator |  Chaotic Obfuscator Moderator Joined: May 2009 Posts: 16,804 Likes: 16 | Aqua - I beg to differ on the a good GM won't... As you say so eloquently in your paragraph, you tell the PCs by telegraphing the situation and offering alternatives. But I don't always agree with the you will save your PCs or prevent their untimely death because they are foolish and charge headlong into danger. I just get that some players are willing to do the stupid, and impossible things, even when told not to. I think that a living world includes all of those things.
That being said my expectation as a GM is at the table PC death should be meaningful and not a random roll, which is especially important in PBP where a player can spend years creating and playing a character. | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | Miales - Interesting multi-class action to use a Fighter ability to gain the ability to cast 3 spells in a round! Yes, one is a Cantrip, but still. | | | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 Coordinator of Chaos Moderator | | Coordinator of Chaos Moderator Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 | | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | Yes, seems good. Just interesting. I've seen Sorceror/Paladins who do a similar thing, using the Sorceror spell slots for the Paladin Divine Smite Power. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | A quick note. We (my brother and I) are upgrading the Forge-VTT system this weekend. If the site is down, that's why.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 80,971 Likes: 83 Wizop Administrator | | Wizop Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 80,971 Likes: 83 | Good luck!  | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | We'll see. The server is up but the upgrade shouldn't impact us much at all. The real impact is for our FTF virtual games.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | Neptune: ooc: Sorry about the delay in responding. It's been busy at the Neptune household. My son, his wife and my 2-year old grandson have been staying with us for my niece's wedding and that's meant chaos and jam-packed schedules. Now, on to the game. Nice try Miales but it's a no-go for your actions. Yes, you could actually get off 3 spells but the rules are clear. You get 1 action, 1 bonus action and if you use an action surge, a third spell. The problem is that all your spells are full-action spells. So you need to cut one of the spells or change one spell to a bonus-action spell. Note that there are abilities that can make this happen. A sorcerer with quickened spell meta-magic can change a spell casting time from full action to a bonus action. And yes, a second spell cast in a round must be a cantrip. Note that Aubric's Healing word is a bonus action and that was by design to help keep the party alive without sacrificing an action. Adding the following for clarity:
It would be...
1 full action spell
1 bonus action cantrip
1 action surge full action spell Please revise. Aubric's move works fine. Miales: OOC: So to be clear going forward... If Pavel uses a spell, he can cast only one during a turn. But if he does physical attacks he can get his Extra Attack that he got at Level 5 for also being a Fighter. I had based the turn off the Action Surge giving me an Action and the fact that Pavel has two attacks (Also actions). Zeim You can use the surge for a spell. Neptune's point is that you used 3 spells that are all Full "Actions". You only get 1 action and then a second one for the surge. Those can both be normal spells. You also normally get a Bonus Action, but you cannot cast a spell that takes a Full "Action" during your Bonus Action. You can only cast a spell that is listed as being a "Bonus Action". Neptune: see Fighter Extra Attack and then look at the definition of the Attack Action. Although the spell does damage, it's not an "attack action". When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike. However, if you have bonus action spells (there aren't many), you can use your regular action to cast a spell, a bonus action to cast another spell and then use an action surge to cast a third. There's another limitation. See Casting a spell and note that if you use that bonus action to cast a spell, the full action spell you cast MUST be a cantrip. The logic behind this is simple. Multiple attacks per round is a fighter skill because of training with a weapon. Spells are completely different. They require verbal, material or somatic components and are more complex than swinging a blade. I hope that clears things up. Aquadyne:
To amplify this, if you do cast a spell as a Bonus Action you can only do cantrip(s) for your action(s) (and vice versa).
So you could do at most (if you use action surge) Action-Spell + Action-Spell + Bonus-Action-Cantrip OR Action-Cantrip + Action-Cantrip + Bonus-Action-Spell. So with that explanation, you're saying anyone can cast 2 spells in a round as long as one of them is a Cantrip (and can be cast as a Bonus Action)? So the only benefit of the Sorceror Mega-Magic ability is to change the casting time of a Normal Spell to a Bonus Action? Seems little benefit unless he wants to cast a regular spell as a Bonus Action and then take some other non-spell action? He's a Sorceror. He wants to cast spells not take non-spell actions. So basically it just allows 2 "Action" spells to be cast (instead of one having to be a Bonus Action), but one still has to be a Cantrip.
I have not reviewed all of the spells to see how many are Bonus Actions. I know it is not a lot so maybe that is where it comes in. Any regular spell and then any Cantrip. Miales: OOC: Considering there are no Cantrips that are classified as anything but requiring a full action, I am not seeing where even that is possible, Aqua.
And Pavel is a dual class Fighter/Wizard which I am beginning to realize is more of a hindrance than beneficial.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | I agree its hard to do 2 spells (not talking about the Action surge here). I suppose it is why the Mega Magic Sorceror ability lets you cast two spells that are both Actions (it changes one to a Bonus Action), with the limitation that one of them has to be a Cantrip. Imagine 2 normal spells, then add another one for the Action Surge, and cast 3 Fireballs in the same round. Unbalancing. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | Yeah, so I cleaned up the game thread and moved this discussion to where it belongs, in the OOC: thread.
Please remember to color code all OOC: in red and let's try and be a bit more tidy about these OOC discussions.
Back to the discussion. Miales, the core of 5e is and has been balance. Think of it this way. A 12th level fighter with 3 attacks per round, a strength of 20 and a long sword. If he hits with every swing he does 1d8+5 three times 3d8+15 which is a range or 18-39 damage to a single target without a crit. I'm sure that there's ways to build onto that but let's use this as a baseline.
Now look at a 12th level wizard casting a fireball with a 6th level slot will do 11d6 or 11-66 points of damage to MULTIPLE targets. Do that 3 times and what kind of damage you have done?
But we're talking about character optimization and not roleplaying at this point. Is building the biggest, baddest character the objective or is it something else?
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | As for bonus action spells for wizards, here's a full list:
Expeditious Retreat - 1st
Dragon's Breath - 2nd
Magic Weapon - 2nd
Misty Step - 2nd
Shadow Blade - 2nd
Spirit Shroud - 3rd
Far Step - 5th
Tasha's Otherworldly Guise -`6th
Blade of Disaster - 9th
You'll notice that they're all spells to help you escape or that augment other abilities. And yes, there are very few of them.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 Coordinator of Chaos Moderator | | Coordinator of Chaos Moderator Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 | Ahhh none of those are Cantrips... and most are versions of teleportation spells
Last edited by Miales; Tue 31/12/2024 23:26 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 Maris Imperium Moderator | | Maris Imperium Moderator Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 | But we're talking about character optimization and not roleplaying at this point. Is building the biggest, baddest character the objective or is it something else? I'm optimizing my healing. I can stack multiple effects. Some aren't even spells or cantrips, they're just getting the assistance of a diety. Dieties rock. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | Miales, I can't and won't play for you but for your character, a fighter magic user, I might do something like this: - Full action: Mold Earth
- bonus action: Misty Step
- Action surge: 2 long sword attacks at +6 to hit, 1d8+3 damage which is 8-22 damage or an average of 16 points if both strikes hit.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 Coordinator of Chaos Moderator | | Coordinator of Chaos Moderator Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 | We are now looking at range problem. Misty Step only has a range of 30 ft. The Forge is currently down or I'd come up with another similar plan (there are trees within 30 ft of him. | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | Easiest would be just to change sword attacks to bow attacks and leave the rest? | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | I just activated the game on Forge. We ran a major upgrade this weekend.
Pavel is 45 away from the giant. That means he could:
Full action: Mold Earth
bonus action: Misty Step 30 feet
move 1/2 speed: 15 feet
Action surge: Make 2 long sword attacks.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 Maris Imperium Moderator | | Maris Imperium Moderator Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 | Pavel is 45 away from the giant. That means he could ... Mold Earth ... Misty Step ... Those are both spells; if you use a spell as a BA you can't use another spell as an action unless it's a cantrip, or unless the DM has a house rule otherwise (Zeim does, not sure about Nep?) But moving would get Pavel out of the way of his horse which could trot into the web next to Aubric's (and within touch range of Arus who can lay hands). And if both Pavel and the horse moved, the mold earth may be unnecessary and he'd have that full action back to do whatever with, either a melee attack (with extra attack) or possibly chill touch cantrip, or a ready action. But it's Pavel's choice.  | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | Its confusing Aqua, but I think you have it right. Just because you use a BA to cast a non-cantrip spell doesn't mean you get to cast another non-cantrip spell using your regular action. And I don't think there are any Cantrips that are BA's, so the main advantage of having BA spells (and this is also why most of them are teleport/move related) is that after you cast them you still retain your normal action to make a melee attack with.
Which effectively means NO way to cast 3 spells in a round, not even using an Action Surge or Meta Magic AND the only way to even cast 2 spells in a round (one of which MUST be a cantrip) is using an Action Surge or Meta Magic. Using normal means it is 1 spell per round only. | | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 Maris Imperium Moderator | | Maris Imperium Moderator Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 12,844 Likes: 23 | Which effectively means NO way to cast 3 spells in a round... Unless you have an object that only requires an object interaction to cast a spell. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 27,795 Likes: 1 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 27,795 Likes: 1 | the only way to even cast 2 spells in a round (one of which MUST be a cantrip) is using an Action Surge or Meta Magic. This is not accurate. We've legitimately had expeditious retreat as a bonus action spell used alongside a cantrip action several times already this game. | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 23,135 Likes: 13 | Yes. I realized that after. You can do 2 spells in a round but one must be a Cantrip and one must be a Bonus Action (if not using a special ability like Action Surge or Meta magic). That generally limits it (if not using a special ability) to some sort of movement type spell (since most BAs are movement type spells) and then a Cantrip.
Last edited by Zeim; Thu 02/01/2025 14:32 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 18,574 Likes: 7 | Incorrect. See what Jeremy Crawford says about casting a spell with an action surge. Let's rehash now. A spell caster may do the following: Cast a full action cantrip Cast a bonus action leveled (non-cantrip) spell Cast a full action leveled spell Note that the spell caster still has a reaction so if he has a reaction spell, add that to what he does in a round. Example: A fighter-wizard with an action surge could, in one round... Cast Firebolt full action cantrip Cast Misty Step bonus action Cast Fireball with an action surge Cast Shield with a reaction
Last edited by Neptune; Fri 03/01/2025 20:36 UTC. Reason: Added the words "full action" to the cantrip
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 Coordinator of Chaos Moderator | | Coordinator of Chaos Moderator Joined: Jan 2023 Posts: 8,294 Likes: 21 | Neptune: I updated Pavel's move on the forum. No casting. A lot of movement though. Updated him on forge as well. | | |
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