DreamLyrics™ Play-by-Post Forums Fantasy SKT: The Storm King's Thunder OOC thread

Seems like it's a rule the basic rules. The example given is even comparable to the 20-dam mud vs. 13-max-hp victim.


If you have a house rule otherwise, can you elaborate what it is?

That's not what I thought you meant. I meant that if an enemy drops to zero, unless there's some power they have, I remove the token from the map. I don't remove a PC that's been downed.

Yes. That is how you die.

I'm not asking for any secret information. I've been asking based on perceivable circumstances that any of the characters can see.

How fast is the mudslide moving? I asked about the mechanics of it with respect to the hill giant potentially "riding" it, but you simply answered that the hill giant grabbed a tree and stopped without telling me what would happen if he didn't. This should be something perceivable, not secret DM info.

Is there a perceivable "end" to the mud where one could do a mental calculation of how many seconds left until it is over? Or is the hill continuing to erode and we don't know how long it will continue? Or is the "end" beyond visual range?

A PC that suffers massive damage can't recover. No death saves.

A max-13 hp horse that does not have 8 or more hp when hit with 20 damage can't recover. No death saves.

That's what I'm saying and why I've chosen not to even try to keep any horses alive with spells.

1) It would take an action to make a nature skill check now to study the flow in the manner you're asking. A clearer answer is that this is entirely a DM decision and will be based on the ability of the party to survive. It has nothing to do with reality or current perception.

2) Only PCs get death save. Horses, monsters, NPCs don't. They can be healed or stablized. I will say that the rules are not clear but that's how I've always run it.

For how many turns?

As long as they don't suffocate.

Thanks for the clarification.

Based on all this can I retcon my turn to something close to what I originally posted? Healing word BA on horse, movement+dash as originally posted, ready action for spare the dying cantrip that I have to stabilize horse if further damage puts it to 0hp.

Feel free to say no, but this whole encounter has been rather confusing for me, coming from a "RAW mechanics" mindset.

Hold on ... for a day or so. I'm working something out.
<pause>

Yeah, Aqua, I dislike RAW (as I've said before). First of all it is not an accurate statement. Almost ALL rules are interpretable, so very little can be said to be "as written". In fact, in a recent conversation I showed a rule that Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls said they would adapt with a house rule because it made more logical sense.

But more than that, many (I am NOT accusing any here of this) people, especially on blogs and Game Posts in Beyond use the phrase "RAW" as a club to stifle discussion. Someone asks a legitimate question about how to interpret a rule and instead of having an intellectual conversation the phrase "RAW" is slammed into their face to try to shut them up.

Now all of that said, I can understand doing it out of DM frustration when playing with a group of rules lawyers and not wanting the game to bog down.

So here is the new Surprise rule for D&D 2024:

"How does Surprise work in the new DnD 5e rules?
In the new 2024 DnD 5e rules, Surprise is significantly less powerful. The DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is Surprised at the start of the encounter.

The difference in the rules is that if a creature is Surprised they have disadvantage on their Initiative roll at the start of combat. This means it’s less likely for the side with the element of Surprise to completely wipe out their opponents."

So, no loss of turn. Everyone goes. It is just those who are surprised will likely go later.

This wasn't meant to be any sort of statement pro or con regarding RAW.

The reality is that I haven't played this game in decades. I don't even have the previous experience of this party in this game in how Nep runs encounters. And what experience I've had between playing and now has been either writing code (which is required to follow "rules" because it's a dumb computer) or DMing myself (wherein I don't have years of experience as a DM to fall back on).

"RAW" is easier for me because I can look up the rule to determine my options when I'm faced with a dilemma (e.g., "do something" to save the horses). And I'm a math guy and can calculate odds and such. I've done 100% roleplay based games much more recently, but there you just "say" what you're going to do and don't have to deal with any "rules". I can be more creative when that's the situation, but pure creativity doesn't help when action economy and conditions and damage come into the picture.

Bottom line: I'm still learning, and still don't even know what options I really had on my turn. I could have apparently made a nature check. I didn't know that yesterday. I know that today.

Not meant as criticism of your DMing. You're doing a great job. I just hear "RAW" and it sets my teeth on edge.

Oh I hear you Aqua. I fall into the opposite camp. I have played so many games over the last ... cough ... years, that trying to pin down what is what version, just isn't worth it to me. I started out as a GM making judgement calls because they didn't have the rule base to cover every situation. I personally find that much more satisfying and enjoyable at the table. It makes play go more quickly, and it keeps the players invested rather than trying to look up or remember a rule, and they trying to determine what was intended by the way they wrote it.

As players in my games know, the rules often get tossed out. Which I am sure is frustrating in its own way. But it is who I am at this point, and I really enjoy playing and running games the way I do. Hopefully others do to.

FWFW ... I have enjoyed your games Pande <g>

Quickly on RAW. I learned something as a new Little League administrator many years ago. I was talking to the president of a very large league (1500 kids playing in that program). He was discussing what it takes to survive the job. There is NO job more difficult than adjudicating rules for the insane Little League parents. Eventually I would hold a position at a county level that oversaw that League and 12 others. His advice in that one conversation was one that formed my attitude about RAW.

He said, "The rules are your friend". There is no arguing the letter of the law. It's when the law is ambiguous that the judge runs into trouble.

Let me tell you all that the number of times police had to be called to the field was unacceptable. But when it came down to making a decision, which in the long run would have no impact on anything but the score in a game, I always cited RAW and explained that there's no gray areas. It's black and white. Any "interpretation" of the rules becomes a muddy slog.

I run RAW when I can.
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So the pause in the game is that there were many different discussions about how to handle a landslide of this nature.

I picked one that isn't RAW.

There are reasons for that. The RAW rules for a landslide would cause slightly less damage but would also be potentially more devastating. Here are the RAW landslide rules: Avalance and landslide rules. I'm not sure if you all have access to that so...


As you can see, many of you and your horses would have failed the DC 15 strength check.
While there is no dex check involved, all of you and your horses would have been knocked prone and buried in mud. All of you would be blinded and restrained with no ability to cast spells. The damage would be less, but the chances of everyone surviving would be low.

Why was the damage higher? Well, the avalanche was for tier 1 players (level 1-4) and you're higher level.

How long does the landslide last? Great question but answering that would force my hand and prevent me from preventing your death. If you read the RAW rules you'll note that you would take 1d10 damage twice per round and get swept hundreds of feet away.

The scientific answer to that is here: How long do landslides last?. "Landslides can happen with no notice or can take place over a period of days, weeks, or longer." Shall I roll a d100 to determine how many minutes it lasts? I beg you not to dare me

So rather than ask me technical questions like that and forcing my hand, how about you all declare what you do without asking questions and forcing me to RAW and I'll steer the narrative.

And the RAW reason that I won't answer these questions is that only Bern had made any sort of knowledge roll about the landslide and I gave an answer that was fitting. You all otherwise failed so you are as clueless as a Neanderthal wandering through a CERN laboratory. (Okay, an exaggeration there).

With that, go ahead and post.

So Kriv then Bern?

Will post once my hair-brained idea is commented on

Hey Nep,

First, thank you for all the background on avalanche rules. I trust you as a DM to do what's best for the party/story and appreciate all you do.

I do think there's been some miscommunication, probably based on me asking so many questions and leading off with ones associated with how you're running the avalanche. And I'm asking so many questions because despite running a few encounters, I'm still a n00b at a lot of this and how it's generally played at real tables by experienced DMs.

All that said, I'm going to apologize because I'm still confused here.

I'm going to circle back and ask the questions about which I am still confused, and I will stick to one question at a time.

Background:

Early on in this encounter you gave some hints that I glossed over, like
and
and

You can't say we weren't warned. That's great DM'ing. Bravo.

We all know what happened next.

And because of that I'm trying to be a better player and I've learned to read everyone of your posts carefully trying to find hints for actions I should maybe think about taking. So when you said this...


... I took it as a hint that some of us should do something to help the horses survive.

And this is where my knowledge fails me and my questions began.

Question: Allied NPCs, damage, and death

All Aubric is really good for is buffing and healing, but some of my healing has limitations, and all of it is a limited resource, and you were very clear the mudslide was just "the appetizer", indicating I should save (most of) those resources.

The last thing I would want to do is waste healing spells on something that was going to die anyway; if the damage could be predictably capped I could weigh the pros and cons. But we don't know how many repeated waves there are. And that's fine, all I was asking for was whether we knew or not. "Do we have to guess" was an explicit option to answer. 'Nuff said about that. But I still thought perhaps using one level 1 spell slot for one healing might be worth it if I could save one horse (mine).

But I still don't know if that's even possible.

I asked about "insta-death" but apparently my question was misunderstood. Even when I clarified, your answer did not address the horses:


Fine. Enemies get removed (what you may have thought I meant by instant death).

And PC's dont get removed but this is explicitly covered in the rules because PCs make death saves (unless they take massive damage).

That doesn't cover allied NPCs.

You told me NPCs don't make death saves, even if they aren't enemies:


But I do not understand what you mean that "Horses can be stabilized."

All that Stabilizing a Creature means is that a creature at 0 hp doesn't have to make death saving throws:

If a 0 hp horse is already not making death saving throws, then it's already "stable". One of my considered actions for Aubric was to use his "Spare the Dying" cantrip to help his horse, but it seems that would have been a completely useless action.

Further, referring to the Instant Death rule that I really was referring to, it seems to me that any Riding Horse with 7 or fewer hp will die if it fails its strength saving throw (which it will automatically fail if unconsious). 20 damage minus 7 hp = 13 remaining damage, which "equals or exceeds [the horse's] hit point maximum."

We as a party would have to continually heal horses to 8-or-more hp after every wave to avoid the risk of instant death.

Even Boris with 19 max hp would need to be repeatedly healed to 2 hp or more, to avoid irrevocable "remove from map" death.

Back to the mudslide


Our horses aren't a "higher level". 13 hp is in the level 1-2 range.

I'm firmly convinced that this mudslide is not survivable for the horses without constant use of healing resources which would be better saved for the "higher level" PCs that we can't just buy more of. Which means I keep thinking I should just abandon them to their inevitable demise.

But then you said and I keep thinking maybe somehow I'm missing something that should be done.

TLDR: Questions about horse damage

1. Does the Instant Death rule apply to the horses?

2. What happens to a horse at 0 hp which takes damage? Further down in the link in Q1 it says "If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure." This rule makes no sense for a creature that doesn't make death saving throws.

First, no apologies needed. I was going to PM a lot of that post to you but took a day and decided to share the thought process with everyone.

Your horses aren't higher level so they are more vulnerable, yes.

Instant Death applies to everyone. When you take damage and after you subtract the remaining hit points of any character, if the remainder is larger than your total hit points, you're gone. Actually, insta-death is really only for PCs.

When the horses drop to 0 they'll be unconscious. That's only me being kind. Other DMs would wipe them off the map. So if a downed horse isn't tended to, it will die. There's no death saving throws but you can heal them and if you do, do it with some urgency.

And as for you being a noob, you're doing great as a DM...( as a player ... LOL). The one thing I'll say about being an experienced DM is that RAW is best but fudge dice help and knowing when to be agile is another.

Are there level adjustments for Instant Death (I freely admit that as DM I never use it)? Otherwise, are we saying a 4HP (1st level) Wizard who takes 9 points of damage from an attack is permanently dead? Seems a bit ridiculous if so.

DnD 5e (2014) 1st level wizards had a minimum of 6 hp. It's 6 +Con bonus.

OK, but doesn't answer the question. A 6HP 1st level wizard takes 13 hp of damage and is permanently killed? If he is attacked by a Glaive, Great Axe, Great Sword, Halberd, Lance, Pike, and/or Heavy Crossbow; all can do enough damage in a single blow with a max or close to max damage roll and a medium Str/Dex bonus.

Seems a very bad rule. If I was a brand new player and a DM did that to me I'd never come back. 3 Death Save Fails and the auto fail if you take Damage while at zero are bad enough.

As I said, when I DM I do not play that rule as it seems dumb and has the potential to seriously destroy playability/fun. Unless you define the word "Massive" (as used in the rule) to be some sort of huge minimum. like 100hps or more in a single attack, I would toss it.

I think that's covered by

The rules don't need to get fancy with exceptions for level 1 players. The DM can always waive the rule in the name of fun. As you say you do.

Doesn't mean you should make a house rule that massive damage doesn't occur, taking away that threat from the players and emboldening them so that weeks/months/years later your players make a stupid decision to attack something they shouldn't.

Or maybe they do anyway and you roll with it because fun. Didja know that fire giant y'all just faced was a lot more powerful and could have insta-killed some of you? You probably shouldn't have faced it. The actual mission was to gather information, not fight. But hey, combat is fun so I rolled with it and did not actually use the spells that would risk massive damage. 'Cause it was fun. (Although I'm still disappointed nobody climbed onto the giant to gain advantage.)

A good DM won't put their level 1's in a situation where that will happen or if it does can invoke any sort of divine intervention so that it doesn't.

I seem to remember Pavel getting hit with Molten Grasp and going unconscious before he had the opportunity...