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Yes, Vryx, not sure where the "players now have to buy all the source material for the campaign to use it" comes from? I had to buy a basic Beyond license years and years ago but I have access to all the game material, including specific campaign stuff that my DM purchased and is using, for no extra charge. Maybe we're talking about two different things?

Well I thank you Nem for the suggestion. I am going to give FTD a read.

Oh Nem you should check out M20 Adamantine edition. It is a rules light the compatible rpg. The only thing I would say is it doesn't have the OSR vine if you specifically want that. It is also available free on the web under the creative commons rules.

Already checked M20 Fifth Adamantine Edition out, Pande! It's a neat package, and the 3rd Ed styling was nostalgic. Very pickupable.

My problem is I ran this newbie group through Dragon of Icespire Peak using standard 5e, but they were floundering with all the rules by 3rd level. So I've been looking for a hack of 5e that scales back the rules and makes combat quicker but doesn't contradict any fundamentals the players have already learned.

So for example, introducing roll-under and THAC0 would be a no-no.

The DM let his monthly expire but he had bought all the additional source material. He was angry that if he didn't keep up the monthly that he didn't get to keep what were the one-time purchases. So to get the elements back on my character sheet, I had to make a lot of microtransactions for each feat and class feature, etc. to show back up on the sheet.

Well I can certainly see how that would be annoying.

Yeah that would be annoying. No-one likes being nickle and dimed.

Ah I get it now. I totally understand and for me combat length is probably the most annoying stumbling block.

I am reading and like FTD. I just wanted to highlight the minimalist nature of M20.

Aye, I should have started this new group on something like M20 instead of 5e tbh. It's just they requested D&D specifically; as you'd expect given the brand recognition.

So far they've enjoyed their RPG experience but only so much as playing a board game, I reckon. They haven't fallen in love with it yet and that might be because the rules are distracting them from the freedom of role-playing.

You could always go "old school" and do all of the rolling and adjustments for them yourself 'behind the DM screen' so to speak. They just tell you what they want to do and not worry about details. Or, if they enjoy rolling dice, let them do that but you apply modifiers yourself. You could even go full 'theatre of the mind' and not use any sort of maps or worry about distances/ranges etc. Just have them say "I run up and attack", you say "OK, roll the D20", they do and you decide what happens and where they moved to.

Yes I think more of those techniques are a good idea, Zeim, crucial probably. I'll let you know how I get on. In essence I want them to stop reading their character sheets when they play. In a counter-intuitive way there shouldn't be anything worth reading on the sheet. It's for quick reference only.

Vryx, that is annoying but it sounds like your DM sabotaged you.

Pande, In a 3 hour session a week ago, my party (6 level 10 PCs + companions) fought over a dozen duergar and 3 Umber Hulks in a challenging environment. We got in 13 rounds in 3 hours. Everyone was impressed. Once players get used to their characters and if the DM is on the ball, combat can move quickly.

I hear what you are saying. But having grown up in the old world 5e 4e 3e all are so much more crunchy that they take longer.

Note I am not advocating one roll. I get the back and forth. I am also not saying low ho is the answer either. I just look at how long things take and say that is too much.

Maybe it is my past. Maybe it is my current. Regardless it is my desire. There we go.

Honestly the more I explore other systems, the more I think Cypher might be the way to introduce most newbies to gaming. It allows for effort on rolls, it is cinematic (pulpy) without being terribly mechanical.

Yes and Numenara's a high quality book too, Pande, so if you put it in front of RPG newbies I think they'd be impressed by it.

I'll buy a copy of D&D 2024's PHB anyway; I'm interested in seeing how they've made it more accessible.

One of the big differences between 5e and OSR-style games is how many column inches devoted to race. In 5e it's a major decision point considering what little mechanical effect it has, taking up many many pages in the core books and supplements. In OSR-style games it's often covered in a paragraph with a choice of human, elf, dwarf or halfling.

Data from D&D Beyond and Baldur's Gate 3 suggests humans, elves, dragonborn and tieflings are the most popular races in that order. If you guys were joining a new game, would just human, elf, dwarf and halfling be sufficient for you?

Yes. I usually like Tieflings and Elves as I lean towards magic using classes but in this new system it seems that benefits are no longer attached to race but rather to background so race seems to have become nothing more than RPing flavor? If the game was interesting (and especially if race had no bearing on benefits) The 4 basic races would suffice for me.

If the races don't have much mechanical differences then it doesn't matter if there are 4 or 40. You can in OSR fashion reskin and add flavor text. That is what we always did.

Personally I play weird races. I like variety and want to bring something different to the table and the group. In the olden days we had Arduin which offered a bunch of different races that we just incorporated into our game. We also used mana rather than memorization as our magical mechanic.

But four is fine to start. We know they will make more and sell supplements.

5TD only offers four and there isn't really a difference between them. Race only changes what dice you roll for stats, so it changes the probability of rolling high or low on certain stats. There's no standard array so it should work as intended.

Neither elves or dwarves can see in the dark either, which is a step away all versions of D&D. This is the only change I'm not sure about but it's also pretty easy to re-implement. I could re-implement darkvision for elves and dwarves, re-rolling 1s for halflings... there aren't any feats in 5TD so what could I give humans?

How about one extra die to roll for stats for one stat of their choice (so instead of rolling 4d6 and keeping top 3 you would roll 5d6 and still only keep top three)? Or some sort of Skill bonus?

Yes, a bit like the Skilled feat in 5e. I like that. It gives humans a versatility vibe.

Well I have pre-ordered the physical and online versions of the Player's Handbook. I hope it lives up to promises, and I fear that it will be a failure... so maybe it will b e somewhere in between? I just want all the rules in one place for Chargen, and see what they have got

My copy of the 2024 PHB has arrived but I'm saving it for my birthday.

Nice! Mine is on the way.

Has yours arrived yet, Mina? What do you make of it?

I got mine yesterday, and I am reserving complete judgment until I have time to go through it thoroughly. I can say it is not as 'complete' as I would have liked it since they were touting it as various rules now in one book. A lot of potential player races are not there, and I assume they will be in supplements down the line which I find frustrating.

Also, Half Elf and Half Orc are now gone. The "half/quasi races" are just... no more. I did a dive and they are considered 'problematic' as they feature children that are unlike either parent. For me that is silly, they are a combination of two different species! Of course they will be different. But... you can still play characters of mixed heritages, but you choose one of the parents to take after for aspects. So if you play a half elf, you choose either human with a few cosmetic choices in looks to hint at a less than pure human lineage, or you are playing an elf with with a few cosmetic choices in looks to hint at a less than pure elf lineage.

I find that disappointing.

I don't have my 5th edition books anymore, lost in a move or just bounced out of my inventory along the way possibly. So this is a nice dip back into the rulebooks, but first glance it feels a bit of a bait and switch (not as inclusive as it was touted to be).

Have you dipped into yours Nem?