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| | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | About Davroar, in bear form, picking up scents. D&D is pretty comprehensive. It's shocking how the authors thought of almost everything. Let's start with the rules verbatim... TRACKINGAdventurers sometimes choose their path by following the tracks of other creatures-or other creatures might track the adventurers! To track, one or more creatures must succeed on a Wisdom (Survival) check. You might require trackers to make a new check in any of the following circumstances: • They stop tracking and resume after finishing a short or long rest. The trail crosses an obstacle, such as a river, that shows no tracks. • The weather conditions or terrain changes in a way that makes tracking harder. The DC for the check depends on how well the ground shows signs of a creature's passage. No roll is necessary in situations where the tracks are obvious. For example, no check is needed to track an army advancing along a muddy road. Spotting tracks on a bare stone floor is more challenging, unless the creature being tracked leaves a distinct trail. Additionally, the passage of time often makes tracks harder to follow. In a situation where there is no trail to follow, you can rule that tracking is impossible. The Tracking DCs table offers guidelines for setting the DC or, if you prefer, you can choose a DC based on your assessment of the difficulty. You can also grant advantage on the check if there's more than one set of tracks to follow, or disadvantage if the trail being followed passes through a well-trafficked area. On a failed check, the character loses the trail but can attempt to find it again by making a careful search of the area. It takes 10 minutes to find a trail in a confined area such as a dungeon, or 1 hour outdoors. TRACKING DCs
Ground Surface DC
Soft surface such as snow 10
Dirt or grass 15
Bare stone 20
Each day since the creature passed +5
Creature left a trail such as blood -5
In the case of Davroar trying to establish a baseline scent, we'll say that the "Creature left a trail such as blood" (scent). Since footprints aren't so much an issue and you're just trying to discern one scent from another, we're going to start with a DC 15. But it's been almost a full tenday, so the scent has started to wear off. But few people have traversed this location and I believe this is doable but tough. Having read up on bloodhounds I've decided that the "each day since the creature has passed" in this case to be less of an impact. Instead of +5 I'm going to use +1 and we'll say it's 7 days (since in the thread I said "last week") The base DC I'm using 15. and with all the adjustments, the DC=22 but Davoar has advantage. I hope that sounds fair.
-Nep
| | | | Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,284 Administrator | Administrator Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,284 | Scientists say bears are about 7 times better than a bloodhound in tracking by scent, but given the elapsed time it sounds fair. | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 | A question about Jaliera's Familiar, Whisper. Since Whisper is not actually an Owl, but rather a Fey spirit in the form of an Owl, does it understand what others in the party are saying when they speak? Jaliera can communicate with it telepathically, but can she also speak to it and have it understand her? Just wondering whether it can understand speech, including other's speech.
So, for example, Jaliera can see and hear thru it's eyes and ears if it is within 100 feet of her, but lets say she sends it ahead to scout and while it is a mile or so away it encounters a group of people. If it sits and listens to them could it come back to Jaliera and tell her what they said? | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | I would say no. It circumvents the limits that the 100 feet distance is all about. And if we're talking about an owl, what language does it speak? Even a fey owl? DnD Beyond forum discussion on the matterBTW, there are many other similar discussion and all agree.
Last edited by Neptune; Fri 15/11/19 17:25 UTC.
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 Member | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 | If it is a few spirit in the form of an owl, I would say that it at least understands 'fey'. If there is a direct 'mental' connection between the two, I would say that thoughts is thoughts. But that is just me <weg>
MikeD
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | LOL. I would say that there's a chance it speaks Fey "owl" language, not the same language that a fairy speaks. We'll stick with the ruling that it can only take telepathic commands from Jaliera and let her see and hear through it's eyes and ears.
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,500 Likes: 57 Wizop Administrator | Wizop Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,500 Likes: 57 | Nice try guys! | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 | I read that discussion thread, Nep, and the thing most of the comments miss is that the familiar is not an animal. In the very first message they mention that it is a spirit (celestial, fey or other), but then they continue on talking about the limitations of an actual animal, such as a Raven being able to mimic speech but not talk yet it being very intelligent.
That misses the point entirely. A Familiar is NOT an animal. It is a completely different creature who has simply taken on a common form. Discussing whether a normal Raven is intelligent or can speak is meaningless. It is what it can understand and then communicate telepathically to its Wizard.
For example, if Davroar changed into a Bear he would lose the ability to speak because a Bear does not have the physically complex vocal chords required to do more than growl. However, if he was standing among the party he does not lose the ability to understand what others are saying when they speak simply because he is in Bear form. If he could communicate telepathically there would be no reason people could not speak to him in Common and he replied telepathically.
That is what I am wondering whether a Familiar could do.
If it does not understand common, and there is a magical "Universal Translator" that allows Jaliera to communicate with it telepathically, even though they don't speak a common language, then fine. But the fact it "looks" like an Owl means very little.
Since it can understand Jaliera's telepathic communication it is, by definition, intelligent enough to understand communication and meaning. The question really (to me) simply comes down to a language thing.
As a different example, if Jaliera were to cast the Tongues spell on the familiar it should be able to talk to anyone (the spell description pretty clearly states it works on any creature), which supports the idea that it may be nothing more than a language thing.
(OOC - BTW guys, this is the kind of discussion that Nep and my FTF group could argue over during a game session for hours.)
Last edited by Zeim; Fri 15/11/19 20:00 UTC.
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | (OOC - BTW guys, this is the kind of discussion that Nep and my FTF group could argue over during a game session for hours.)
And the only way I can squash the debate and get back to playing is by uttering the following words... "The Evil DM has made his decision and it's final." As Gypsy said, nice try
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 Member | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 | OK ... go ahead and dismiss what I suggested above. But then that begs the question ... what is the point of a familiar that cannot 'converse' with it's 'partner'???
Just asking <weg>
MikeD
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | MikeD,
First, I didn't dismiss it. I said that Whisper can speak fey owl, whatever that is.
Second, I guess that you didn't carefully read the "ask". Jaliera communicates with Whisper telepathically within 100 feet. Zeim was trying to get Whisper to do scouting over a much greater distance. That's why I nixed the request.
So yes. Jaliera can and has often communicated with her familiar.
-Nep
| | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 | Actually no. I was simply trying to get an answer to whether a Familiar can understand speech.
Lets make the example simple. The party is sitting around a campfire and talking. Does Whisper understand anything that anyone is saying, including Jaliera? Or can it only understand when Jaliera communicates telepathically with it? | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 Member | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 | Hey ... just making sure <g> And ... so ya know ... there =is= a reason I don't GM <wink>
MikeD
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | Zeim,
It can only understand when Jaliera communicates telepathically with it.
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 Member | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 | That begs the question ... when you talk ... does that include 'telepathic communications ... or do you have to direct your thought??
MikeD
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | Direct your thoughts. Nobody hears when Jaliera and Whisper are communicating. Maybe this is what she looks like (a female version)
-Nep
| | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | As Zeim said, these discussions could consume hours during our FTF game sessions Sometimes I say no and then sleep on things and change my mind. So, I took some quiet time and did some more research and did some thinking. This time I further convinced myself to stick to my original decision. You may or may not agree, and that's OK. Sometimes these things go in the other direction. My findings are worth sharing. First, and most important, allowing it would be very unbalancing. if I said "yes" the Find Familiar spell, which is a 1st level spell, would be more powerful than a 4th level spell. Consider Arcane Eye, a 4th level spell that provides visual reconnaissance for up to 1 hour, moving at best at 30 feet per round. It has a set duration. It has an effective range limit. It only provides a single sense - vision. If Whisper could scout for miles and eaves drop for unlimited time and communicate what she heard, is that proper 1st to 4th level balance? It's already an insanely unbalanced power because it gives Jaliera telepathy with a sentient entity. Telepathy is an 8th level spell! Second, the spell is pretty specific about everything it allows. If they meant for that to be a power, it would have stated so. BTW, that picture of Bran Stark the Three-Eyed Raven is pretty dead-on what the communication would look like. Who didn't see Game of Thrones? I don't think that I could find a better depiction. Third, and perhaps it's just icing on the cake for me, owls don't speak or understand a language. Note that the Monster Manual will state that for creatures in their listing. The owl is just an owl. Whisper is as intelligent as a real owl is and doesn't have abilities beyond that of that aside from the specific items listed. Jaliera can convey a desire for her to fly this way or that, to land here or there, to fetch some small item, etc. She can even cast a touch spell through her. But while the owl might receive and obey a command or suggestion, she is not more intelligent than the regular animal. And not for nothing, I consider Whisper to be an integral character in this game. She even has a token on Roll20!
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator | Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 | Be warned, serious nerdism lies ahead!!
When I was running Dungeon World, I found there was no definition as to what process druid shapeshifting is in the fiction, or what familiars are, etc., in keeping with that game's style of play. (You make up such things as befit your game in DW.)
With a druid shapeshifting into a brown bear, the rules said you should give the bear form a set of moves that are like trademarks of that animal.*
That led me to ponder about a brown bear's sense of smell. As Dugan said, noted by scientists as being the best amongst land mammals, far outclassing that of even a wolf. But scent tracking is definitely a trademark of the wolf, whereas it's not something bears are really known for.
Whilst brown bears have very sensitive smell, they don't actively hunt by smell like wolf packs do so it's not as obvious to the observer. They investigate smells over long distances.
And that got me thinking about sensors and computers. A bear has a better olfactory sensor (nose) than a wolf, but its computer (brain) interprets the results differently.
So does shapeshifting into a bear give the druid the bear's sensor but a human computer? No, because then the druid couldn't interpret the data at all.
It seems to me that the intention of shapeshifting, certainly in D&D, is that the shapeshifted druid has a blackbox, a translator, that sits between the bear computer and the human computer, converting the sensory data.
So if the bear can hear human speech within the range of its auditory sensors (ears), that data is converted to human readable data, so the druid-bear can understand it.
Birds have more sensitive hearing than humans, for example, but their brains don't listen out for long meandering sounds like human words. Since the data is translated for the shapeshifted druid's brain, they can understand human speech.
I think the same must apply for a familiar link, otherwise it wouldn't be much use.
And that's why I think normal "animal intelligence" animals are of limited use as scouts, even if you can speak their language. Firstly, they still behave as animals, the master has to give them constant instructions to undertake a trained task. Secondly, they'll report back their own interpretation of the data they pick up.
Are familiar animals still animal intelligence? The D&D 5e rules say they have the same stats as the animal form, so presumably yes.
Putting all that together, I get the sense (sic) that familiars are useful within 100 feet of the master, not very useful beyond that.
Some players might think that's too restricting, but consider your bird familiar circling at 100 feet above your head. That would be like standing at the top of a 100-foot tower. Pretty bloody amazing for scouting!
*Btw, I decided for DW that, based on the idea of trademark moves, a shapeshifted druid must inherit some of the personality/instincts of the animal he's transformed into but that's not as self-evident in D&D. As for druid-bear tracking, DW rules are so vague, I could differentiate between a player wanting to hound the footsteps of a target (a wolf thing), or detect a particular odour from a long range (a bear thing).
Last edited by nemarsde; Sat 16/11/19 10:10 UTC.
| | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,132 Likes: 8 | Nep - I have no issue with your ruling, but please keep in mind whisper is not an Owl. She is a Fey Spirit in the shape of an Owl. She has to understand language as Gypsy is able to communicate with her Telepathically, which would require at least a rudimentary understanding of language. For example, she is able to cast a touch spell thru the familiar, but the familiar has to use it's Reaction to deliver the spell. That's a pretty complex concept to pass across to something that has limited intelligence.
Ruling that the spell provides a Telepathic "Universal Translator" that only works between Jaliera and Whisper so that Whisper doesn't understand any spoken language is fine.
But now a new wrinkle. What if another creature tried to communicate with Whisper Telepathically? Are they able to? | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 Member | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,117 Likes: 5 | =I= think that would depend on the nature of the 'link'. Is a 'private' link based on the spell involved? If so, I would say no. However, if the 'fey spirit' is inherently able to communicate 'telepathically' ... then it seems to me that any 'telepathic being' could communicate with the 'fey spirit' ... and there for with the caster ... perhaps only indirectly.
But I am not the GM <wink>
MikeD
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator | Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 | I love these kind of questions! I think familiar link might be more like possession, you know. I mean, the familiar never disobeys, right? It must appear and disappear on the master's order. Within 100-feet, the master can tune in and take control. Within 100-feet, the master can give it as complex instructions as it they want, can query the familiar and receive sensical replies.... Maybe the familiar is more like a drone or ROV? When directly piloted by the master, they effectively gain human intelligence and understand their master's inputs. At other times they're running on a more instinctual AI, derived from the animal form. | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | Zeim, I don't think of telepathic communication the same way as you do. Neal thinks of it a third way. So keep in mind that we have a fundamental belief differences. My understanding is that it does not have to be words. I looked all over the internet until I found the ONE source we can rely on, Jeremy Crawford: Sage Advice
-Nep
| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator | Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,062 Likes: 9 | When a player asks me questions about how exactly magical effects work, I always use Clarke's Third Law to figure out what I think's happening.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
So I think, 'How would we explain this effect if it were technology?' and that usually gets me to a result.
It's probably the least creative way of answering such questions, but D&D settings tend to have quite common, open magic, so it sort of fits. | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 Moderator | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,966 Likes: 1 | BTW, I'm waiting on players to do something.
-Nep
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