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| | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,058 Likes: 9 Wobbly Headed Administrator |  Wobbly Headed Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 13,058 Likes: 9 | Oh my lord!  Lining up to punch the party's halfling in the face! | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | That was not a championship game but it was an Adventurer's League "Epic" module. Those were not played in stores - only at conventions with multiple tables participating in the same adventure in different ways. I would guess about 1000 people partook in this one event. Our table handled things in a unique way 
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,452 Likes: 57 Wizop Administrator | | Wizop Administrator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 76,452 Likes: 57 |  Nice! | | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member |  Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 | Question for my own education on water level and breathing. Translate quickly to being 5' per round. By the time we get around to this initiative order next round everyone will be submerged. 1. If someone is six feet tall, and water rises five feet, is their head above water for one more round so they can breathe? Or are we playing the "everyone of normal size fits into a 5' x 5' x 5' cube" so they are indeed under water? 2. Is it possible to stand on someone's shoulders to stay above water, e.g., could I spend my move hopping on the back of a Triton to elevate myself above the water line? It might only last one more round at the current inflow rate but just wondering if that'd matter? 3. Why did nobody in the party learn the Air Bubble spell? | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Aqua - Someone should be able to climb (for a time) and stay ahead of the rising water. Possible the walls, the ladder, the rope, etc. If I was DM I am not sure I'd let you climb onto the shoulders of another pc (very unstable). Also, Air Bubble is not a spell in standard 5e. It's a Homebrew spell. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 | 1.) It is ultimately the GM's call ... but it seems to me that someone 6' tall would not have a problem breathing in 5' of water.
2.) Same 'caveat' as above ... but ... as long as the person you wanted to 'clamor on' was willing to cooperate ... =I= don't see why not <shrug>
3.) Well, for one thing, not all of us are 'spell casters'. Beyond that, not all the casters can learn that spell <g>
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | Actually, every single character in this group can cast spells. Many of you just don't. And Zeim's right about that one spell.
Also, it's not a matter of surviving one round. The chamber will continue to fill so standing on the shoulders of another isn't very consequential. In 2 rounds it'll be 10' deep. As a DM I would just snicker at how players that are doing that are playing right into their foe's strategy.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Important to note that unless you're wearing heavy armor or choose to stay down on the floor (which may be a better place to be, presuming Water Breathing) the pcs should naturally float on top of the water. That means with the water rising 5' per round, pcs will begin to float and the water will not start covering their heads unless they want it to. Most pcs should not have a drowning issue for 6 rounds.
Last edited by Zeim; Fri 28/01/22 12:57 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | ...if they make their swimming roll.
...and it's very difficult to swing a weapon while treading water.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 | It isn't easy to swing a weapon under water either <wink>
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Nep - Hence my comment: "(which may be a better place to be, presuming Water Breathing)"
Just clarifying that the water doesn't automatically cover most of the pcs heads after the first round unless they want it to.
Last edited by Zeim; Fri 28/01/22 15:56 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 | | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 |
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 Maris Imperium Member | | Maris Imperium Member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,299 Likes: 13 | Completely unrelated, I just happened upon this actual code in documentation at work right now: <test>Dagon his Name, Sea Monster</test> | | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Moving this to OOC to try to not continue to clutter the game thread:
They tried to gather all of the Skills together into categories in order to eliminate the proliferation that had happened in 3.5+ Swim is part of Athletics. Here are the relevant lines from the Rules:
Athletics Check (determining when it is needed when Swimming)- You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.
Bolding is mine, but note that it calls out dangerous currents and other situations where swimming or floating would be difficult.
In this case I suppose it could be ruled that the chamber filling with water is creating 'Dangerous Currents' <shrug>.
Other part about a Swimming Athletics check:
- At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.”
Note the specification about needing an Athletics check to "gain any distance (i.e. move)", implying that a check is not needed if you don't want to move. Taken together, these rules strongly imply that simply floating in water (if not encumbered) does not require a check.
Of course, the key comment "At the DMs option". So, in the end, all up to Nep and Aqua of course. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 | Well ... ultimately it is the DM's call <shrug>
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | I've moved a lot of the OOC here and respond at the end. Posted By: Zeim Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 03:46 PM
(OOC - Nice catch Aqua. I had read quickly and thought it referred to foes she was moving away from. So I edited Zhu's turn (taking back the Aganazzar's Scorcher spell as she can't cast it if she drinks the potion) and changed her position on the Roll20 map and which Kuo-toa she is trying to charm. She drank the potion to make things simpler, however as I pointed out above, it really shouldn't matter if the water in the room is 2 feet, 6.5 feet, 10 feet, or 20 feet. She would be floating on top as it rises unless she chose to dive down. It would only be when the water completely fills the room to it's ceiling that there would not be a floating option.)
Posted By: AquaDyne Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 04:19 PM
(OOC - if I were DM, I’d only allow drinking one handed whilst treading water with a weapon in the other hand with a Dex check. But I like the simplicity of feet on the ground.)
Posted By: ZeimRe: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 04:27 PM
Yeah, she doesn't use weapons so both hands are free. I like simplicity too, but if the situation is going to involve water combat it has become a 3D model and will be quite complicated.
Posted By: Neptune Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 05:29 PM
Quote
She would be floating on top as it rises unless she chose to dive down.
OOC: If she didn't drink a potion, she would need to make a strength check to swim. I really wish that was a "skill" again. How do you fail today and succeed tomorrow when swimming?
Posted By: Zeim Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 05:34 PM
(OOC - Not sure about that. It doesn't state in the rules you need to know how to swim to float, only if you try to move while in, or under, water. If you're wearing armour then there's a strength check to not sink, yes, but in general if all you want to do is float and not move, I don't believe any check is required.)
Posted By: MikeD Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Wed Feb 02 2022 07:28 PM
[[ FWIW - I miss 'swim' as a skill as well <sigh> ]]
Posted By: AquaDyne Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 12:07 AM
[[OOC I think Sindar is up next. Is Zeim's move Zhu's turn resolved at this point with whichever new targets?]]
Posted By: Zeim Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 12:55 AM
(OOC - It is for me? Was that question for Nep?)
Posted By: Zeim Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 02:22 PM
(OOC - Aqua, in case you weren't aware, if Sindar moves like that he will take Opportunity attacks from both Kuo-toa who started next to him. Zhu teleported, which does not allow an OA by enemies. If he is OK with taking those 2 attacks then that's cool.)
Posted By: AquaDyne Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 02:53 PM
Oops. Well if it was me, I’d keep it with the dice luck I appear to have, and may save more attacks later… but being that I’m ghosting I should probably just stand still.
Posted By: Zeim Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 03:13 PM
(OOC - You can still do the rest, ie drink the potion and cast the Healing Word.)
Posted By: AquaDyne Re: 3H - Second night in Yartar - Thu Feb 03 2022 05:35 PM
[[ Post edited to not move. Also I was confused about healing word when it consumed a spell slot, and should not have cast it, so I'm taking that back too. ]] Although it's irrelevant right now, I'll provide my ruling. My next post will explain why it's irrelevent. For future reference, I agree ... to a point. I will rule, that any somatic spell requirement, and any attack, interferes with your ability to "float". It would require an athletic check, which you cannot do if you have used your action. A nice catch-22. My pool heater is being installed Monday. After I get the temperature adjusted, I'll test out my theory. BTW, are you wearing armor? Carrying weight like a backpack? I kinda doubt you're bouyant. Yes, the swimming rules were amended to allow everyone to swim. If 3 members of the party couldn't swim, the party would be split and 3 players wouldn't be able to survive. Oh, in advance of needing it, here's another ruling via Jeremy Crawford: @JeremyECrawford: If you're knocked prone underwater, you're subjected to the effects of the prone condition as normal. One way to visualize it is that you're floundering. #DnD
Last edited by Neptune; Thu 03/02/22 18:11 UTC.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Aqua - Note on your edit, you CAN still do the Healing on Kriv, along with everything else in your post. Healing Word is a Bonus Action, with a range far enough to cover Kriv, and does not interfere with your action of drinking the potion.
Nep - Just an FYI, I have taken BSA Lifesaving courses where you were required to tread water using only your feet (you had to hold both hands above your head) for 5 minutes. So you do not need your hands, UNLESS you are encumbered and have to make the Athletics check.
People don't understand how bouyant a person is. Unless you are weighed down with armour and heavy equipment it is literally impossible to drown, unless you panic or are in rough water.
Last edited by Zeim; Thu 03/02/22 19:01 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 | [[ or if you become 'fatigued' by all that 'thrashing around' <weg> ]]
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Thus "Panic". There is no need to thrash, People don't realize that if they simply stay still and use some minimal foot/hand movement they will naturally float for a really long time before they are in any danger. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 Member | | Member Joined: May 2000 Posts: 42,106 Likes: 5 | [[ Oh ... and where do they teach this?? <weg> ]]
MikeD
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Boy Scouts, Lifeguard classes at YMCA, and elsewhere. | | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | Zeim,
I get it. I'm a certified diver.
You are not in a bathing suit. According to your sheet, Zhu is carrying 30 lbs. She weighs 115 lbs. When I went diving, as a "very buoyant" person that weighs well over double what Zhu weighs (shhhhh), I needed 25 pounds in weights to combat buoyancy. The typical measure of weights to oppose body weight is 10%. So for Zhu it's 11.5 pounds.
-Nep
| | | | | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 (Buffalo) Moderator | | (Buffalo) Moderator Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 22,119 Likes: 8 | Oh, I agree. The point is that as the water closes in there is a buoyancy factor that will help you. You are not a rock. I have no problem with an Athletics check since we are carrying stuff.
It is interesting that muscular people have a harder time floating than overweight people as fat floats but muscles are denser.
Last edited by Zeim; Thu 03/02/22 20:56 UTC.
| | | | | Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 Moderator | | OP Moderator Joined: May 2000 Posts: 17,954 Likes: 1 | It seems that we agree on the science and how to play it: "For future reference, I agree ... to a point. I will rule, that any somatic spell requirement, and any attack, interferes with your ability to "float". It would require an athletic check, which you cannot do if you have used your action. A nice catch-22. I'll accept the caveat of "if your equipment weight is more than 10% of your body weight"
Last edited by Neptune; Thu 03/02/22 21:10 UTC.
-Nep
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