I figured that we would start an OOC thread. We're going to have two parties. A better way to look at it is that we have 2 tables playing the same game. Before we move forward, I just want to put it out there for everyone (Zeim and I respect your opinions), mechanically, do you have any advice?

My inclination is that we just have 2 threads going in parallel in this one forum. I don't think we want to do two separate forums. Zeim and I will share artwork and the like. So, the first set of questions: What do you all think? Can it work? Any mechanical ideas?

Next. Do you want to come up with party names? Something easy that we can label threads? We can always just list all the character names in parens, but I only really would do that if a party split. We could go as simple as Team1 + Team2, but hey, that's <ahem> boring

The two teams are:

I will be DMing this group:
AJ: Kriv Norixius Dragonborn Fighter (Eldritch Knight)
Nivek: Karok Battlehammer Cleric Dwarf
Gypsy: Jaliera Hassan Rogue Human
Neil: Chandan Human Monk
Zeim: Kallista - "Despair" Warlock Tiefling (Devotee of Dispater)
Dugan: Davroar Human Druid

Zeim will be DMing this group:
Pandemonium: Luminmorn Dragonborn Paladin
Kenseg: Balthazar Human Wizard
MikeD: Bern Human Ranger
Exeter: Ryssa Noman Cleric Human
Neptune: Lingo Halfling Rogue (Arcane Trickster)

FIRST!

Well, one thought would be for the main forum to contain all shared information while the actual games be played in 2 sub-fora (Group A and Group B or whatever their ultimate names would be).

We can be the A-Team!

Sub-fora. That's a good idea! Do we request that?

I kinda prefer the parallel threads in this forum idea as opposed to splitting off into subforums.

I can take care of it Nep ... Just let me know when you decide.

So far there have only been a few replies and it seems to be a mixed reaction to the idea, so we might want to get a consensus <g> FWIW, I like the idea.

Doesn't matter to me how you handle it. I am easy.

Shut up Nivek!

Sub for a - new posts don't show as new on the front page, so I would go for 2 threads in the main one. Shared info threads can be done as stickies. Just my preference.

Neptune - your character says arcane trickster.. I thought that choice came later as that was the direction I was intending to take Kaliera.

Gypsy, I indicated it in advance. Truth is that my PC, although playing at 1st level, is the same one I played at GenCon. He had gotten to 3rd level there so I kinda know.

Thanks for the info about the sub-fora. If the new posts don't light up on the main page, I'm kinda wary of using them. Awaiting more votes and looking for those team names ...

Separate threads in a single forum works for me. Shared gallery and game info and maps as stickies.

Separate threads main forum because I like the visual indicator that there are new threads.

I guess I am confused. I see the new posts to sub-fora showing when I look at the main page. Not only do they show in the sub-fora link, they are included in the totals for the main forum. Is that, perhaps, a setting somewhere?

I can go either way - no problem, but I thought it worked the same way MikeD just posited.

Fine by me. I just want to know that I should look. Sub for a then.

Actually, I think it's just easier to do it without the sub-fora.

Here's what we'll do. Until you guys come up with names, I'll call my table, table "N" and Zeim's table "Z". Threads will be named as follows:

Table-Part.Chapter-Chapter title (optional PC list)
As an example:

N-1.1-Goblins vs
Z-1.1-Goblins

There's an intro, so we're going to start with
N-Intro-Driftwood Inn and
Z-Intro-Driftwood Inn

So, AJ, Nivek, Gypsy, Mina and Zeim, look for the "N" threads and Pandemonium, KenSeg, MikeD, Exeter and I will look to play in the "Z" threads.

And yes, no sub-forums. All of it in the game forum.

So is that N for the table you are playing or the table you are running <gd&r lmao>

Ooooo .. here is a question ... at least for the Zeds ... do we know each other or not?

Interesting. All the Js and Ks in one party, all the Bs and Ls in the other.

Just an ooc hint to my illustrious GM ... Bern was referring to the bow ... not the 1/2 orc and his sword ... when he asked to examine her 'weapon' <weg>

AJ ... seems like as reasonable a criteria as any <chuckle>

I am RUNNING the N-game.
I am PLAYING the Z-game.

I was tempted to ask Gypsy to change her name to K-something and get Mina to do likewise

None of the characters knows any of the others. This is the first time you'll all meet.

When you all come up with team names, I'll rename threads.

Well her surname is Kassan.. with a K

<Sigh> Mina dropped from the game. I posted a message looking for another player. Good news is the party is balanced and the game is written for 4 players.

Sorry to hear that. Why not just go on with 4 then. More loot for the rest of us less people for me to keep alive

Why don't we ask Neil? He is my FTF GM but I rarely get chance to play alongside him.. and both of us have really enjoyed the few times we have done so. Shall I ask him?

Why don't you. Any class will do. The party has balance as-is.

Will do!

Just phoned Neil. He is in and will get started on his character tonight! YAY!

Yippee! That's a gread addition!

Zeim and I had a little debate about money (no, we're not some married couple). He wanted to charge 5 SP for a mug of ale and I referred him back to the Players Handbook where the cost was 4 CP. He argued that the players will have too much money. I countered that there's a cost of living.

Since part of this is about learning the game and, for many of us, evaluating rules, I figure that some of the new rules should be talked about. I'll start with the rewards and then tackle cost of living.

Money and experience points aren't the only things you stand to gain. I suspect that there'll be more in the DM guide but the Adventurer League Player Guide introduces some new concepts in the section about how to fill out your log sheets:



Since these are going to be legit AL characters, you might consider creating a personal log sheet if you intend to use them at a convention like Gencon or PAX. I attend a couple of local conventions in New Jersey (Dreamation and Dexcon) every year. I got a sense of satisfaction when I showed up with my 12th level 4e tiefling warlock and his 30 or so certs to a game.

So what about cost of living? That comes from the Player's Handbook page 157:


Your initial reaction might be to say, I'll just decide to live a wretched lifestyle but there are consequence outline for all lifestyles worse than comfortable and benefits to the better lifestyle. Consequences of being poor might mean disadvantages. For example, if you were to walk into a place smelling of trash, you might get tossed out. If you got into some legal tangle, your judge might want you off the street to better the town. The PHB goes into some of this but it's left to the DM, I think, to make it work. Everyone is expected to start at the Modest level at least. I'll expect that some of you, for roleplaying purposes, will want to play a level up or down. I'm OK with that but there will be consequences.

So, there's this other stuff called Downtime and Renown points. Downtime is earned and you can use it to learn skills and make improvements to your PC. You can learn a language or a craft and therefore earn some degree of stat adjustments. Renown points are about your faction and how important you are in the hierarchy. In effect it's social experience points. Again, when the DMG comes out I suspect that there'll be stuff in it about gaining followers and building castles and stuff like that.

The GP living standard costs, what is the time period for that. Per week? Per month? Per day?

It is per day Ken

Modest is perfect for Jaliera living with 2 others in a room in her mentor's house.

Why do you think she asked the price of the mutton stew?

Dang, guess we will have to start earning some gold or Balthazar will be selling some charmed woman on the streets to make a living.

Oh wait! Wrong alignment! Drats! Is it too late to be LE?

Actually, as stated before, but worth repeating. You can change anything up until 4th level except for your name Balthazar the male GL human wizard could become Balthazar the female half-orc LE barbarian

Now that is a character shift!

Neil is pulling together a human monk currently

Ken, as gypsy said, it is per day ... =but= ... you only pay that 'upkeep' when you are 'spending' your down time days outside of actual game play.

So, as far as I know (and I am sure that Nep will correct me if I missed it) your actual play does not require that expense. The GM will 'copper and silver' us to death explicitly ... as with drinks and food in our current situation <g> ... to account for our 'costs of doing business' ... rather than an 'average cost' of existing in the style to which you have become accustomed <g>

Correct. In between adventures, when you are spending your accumulated "Down Days" to learn a language or a tool that is your cost of living expense.

Also note, for those who have taken Backgrounds in order to obtain the extra Skills Training they provide, each background comes with a specific level of COL. That is the level you need to pay during that time.

Welcome aboard Neil. You'll be playing in the "N" game that I will run.

Dugan is also putting a PC together.

Thanks Neptune! Hello all. Great stuff!

(I'll post after I grab some shut-eye.)

Neil - see PM.

Damn, I think Chandan looks like a better character for our group <pout>

Welcome anyway Neil <g>

Damn, so which wrong name did I use? <sigh>

"Hawk"

I was wondering if Bern and Hawk were the same person.

<sigh> Gods, I gotta pay more attention when using cut and paste. I had used C&P for a hawk post just before that one. Apparently when I did the same for Bern, the copy part didn't work <grumble> Anyway, thanks <g>

Actually, Ex, they are the same =player=, so that's close to the same thing ... isn't it? <g>

Closer than... well, closer than something that's farther away, I suppose.

Yeah, I suppose <g>

I saw this, and thought of Gundren Rockseeker:

That was simply awesome!

W T F <g>

All,
Just an FYI, now that we have all of the players assembled (I still need to review Dugan's sheet but it's been supplied), we'll be moving forward. Don't expect a lengthy discussion about your mission. This bar scene is not part of the published adventure and was devised to let you introduce your characters to each other. The adventure, as written, starts with you on the road. We'll get there by Sunday at the latest.

Excellent. Onwards!

Folks. I'm going to a baseball game tomorrow night and then Zeim's going to try and TPK our party Saturday in our FTF game. If we're absent, that's the excuse.

Just a general question I have for this adventure I didn't want to put in the main topic.

What is the current year, and is it spring, summer, fall, or winter?

It's a great question and there's no clear answer anywhere. The closest I've found is that it's 5-10 years after the Spellplague. I've posted something in the WOTC forums to see if someone can answer.

I have the impression that they are being intentionally vague so that they have more leeway in writing mods than if they were 'tied' to a particular 'date' for everything.

I think you are right. Best I can guess it's sometime after 1485DR.

For the sake of gameplay it's spring.

Here's the answer to my query:

Cool, thank you.

A bit more about surprise. This is something that I wasn't comfortable with when I ran this encounter for my FTF pals the first time. It really confused me. So I took it to GenCon and got my questions answered.

You can handle surprise two ways:
1) a group check
2) individual checks.

I've decided to do individual checks. One goblin might give himself away by stepping on a twig but his friends remain hidden.

If the party is surprised PC's don't get to act in the first round. In the N-Party, everyone is surprised except for Jaliera who with a passive wisdom (perception) of 14 can act on the goblins she sees. The goblins will all get to go. The others can't.

I chose to go with the group check, so we can see how both methods work. No one beats the Goblins stealth check score so they have surprise. All the Goblins get to act in Round 1 and no pcs can act. We then go to normal Initiative rounds.

Eek, thank goodness for the con bonus. Nearly killed the Dragonborn in one shot.

With the way that ambush happened, all I could see Ryssa being able to do was defend herself in that first round at least. If something happens which would bring a serious wound to her attention - even if it was the Dragonborn - she would try to help him.

Ex, the Goblins got a 'surprise' round from their 'ambush'. That was what the damage was so far. Now we are in regular initiative order, so you get a regular round of actions ... move, attack, cast a spell, etc.

Surprise, as I said before, was confusing to me at first. The way that the PHB explains it, if you are surprised, you lose your entire turn during that surprise round. Then you pick up round 2 exactly how initiative states it should be.

Chandan, Karok and Davroar edited their initiatives into their initial posts, 12, 3 and 4 respectively. Do you want us to post our actions in order or concurrently?

Now I do, after the goblins went.

BTW, if anyone wishes to use a "non-lethal" attack (knock unconscious rather than kill) you must specify that in your action. Note that only melee attacks can choose to be non-lethal by the players. Spells and missile attacks cannot choose non-lethal damage. So in the Z-Combat thread only Bern and Ryssa can choose to do so this turn.

Neptune is correct in his "attack w/advantage" comment. I neglected to do so, but I am not going back so we'll press on. Also, if you attack someone who is hidden (which may occur as it is a Goblin ability), and you fail your active Perception check to find him, you attack with disadvantage, which means you roll 2d20 instead of 1d20 and you take the lower of the two rolls.

One item we missed during the surprise round was that since the Goblins were hidden in moderate foliage they were lightly obscured, which should have resulted in the Party having Disadvantage on their Passive Perception checks, which would have translated into a -5 to the Party's PP.

Can you give me an idea of distance to either goblins or Kallista and if Karok could get there in a round considering he has to get out of the wagon.

P.S. You'd have thought all those barrels would have given him excellent cover especially from someone shooting from the front

And once again, I'll state how much I hate this dice roller That's an amazing number of 19's and 20's

Actually, the ambush is even worse than that Zeim. The partial cover for the goblins would probably mean -2 to hit for the party too. I ignored that.

Nivek, I factored in cover for you. That's pretty much why I wiped out the first set of rolls. The crit was on Karok <weg>.

You would need to climb out of the wagon which would be almost a move in itself, but I'll let you get down and move to the closest goblin for an attack.

Nep - That is =almost= exactly how surprise worked in the past. The only difference is that the surprise round is now a complete round instead of a single action.

And, also in the interest of moving on, we will ignore the fact that =two= of our party mentioned that they would be off the road, moving ahead/behind the wagon looking for ambushes <weg>

Mike,
We could do it in the interest of moving on, or I could site the fact that you were traveling at "normal" pace (click on this link) because you had a deadline. Normal pace does NOT allow for active perception and slows travel.

Neptune,
When do I have to declare that Bolts of Inspiration action (War domain ability). Can I hit something and if doesn't drop then I can use it. So say in case I drop the Goblin with the first hit, then I wouldn't have done the second attack

Hmmmm .... looking at your reference, under 'effect' for 'Normal' I see, well, 'Normal'. That seemed to imply no 'penalties' (especially since it shows a -5 to perception for 'Fast'. Of course, I could be over generalizing the 'effects' of 'Normal' <shrug>

Weapons

For each weapon your character wields, calculate the modifier you use when you attack with the weapon and the damage you deal when you hit.

When you make an attack with a weapon, you roll a d20 and add your proficiency bonus (but only if you are proficient with the weapon) and the appropriate ability modifier.

• For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your Dexterity modifier instead.

• For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead.

Nivek, I have to look that up at home.

What do you need, I have my book next to me

MikeD,
What is says is no penalties, yes. But you can't be doing active perception rolls either. I didn't penalize your perception rolls. The goblins rolled really good stealth rolls. 14 was their worst adjusted rolls and only Jariella spotted them.

BTW, to copy replies from other threads here, the PHB states that your Prof bonus only adds to your To-Hit roll, not to Damage. Only your Stat Bonus applies to both To-Hit and Damage. See pages 14 and 196. That is also the way it was played at Gencon. My pc had a +5 To Hit with his Dagger but only a +3 to Damage because my +2 Prof bonus did not apply to the Damage roll.

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/PlayerDnDBasicRules_v0.2_PrintFriendly.pdf

Zeim, see page 9 under "Weapon".

The wording is unclear. It specifies proficiency is added when you make an attack roll, but it does not specify for a damage roll. It specifies adding the strength bonus for attack and damage (or dex for finesse or ranged).

But yeah, it definitely needs to be clearer.

When you take the Dodge action, you focus entirely on avoiding attacks. Until the start of your next turn, any attack roll made against you has disadvantage if you can see the attacker, and you make Dexterity saving throws with advantage. You lose this benefit if you are incapacitated.

No worries Nep ... I am not 'faulting' your assessment of the situation. Not saying it would have been any different if we had been dispersed and all. it just felt like we were sort of 'railroaded' into the ambush <g>

I sent you back a PM Nep, I will copy the rules section you quoted here for everyone's benefit. It states you only use Proficiency for Attack rolls, not Damage rolls. Read it carefully:

When you make an attack with a weapon, you roll a d20 and add your proficiency bonus (but only if you are proficient with the weapon) and the appropriate ability modifier.
• For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength modifier for attack AND damage rolls. A weapon that has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your Dexterity modifier instead.
• For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack AND damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead.

Thanks Zeim. I finally found that section. I was looking at another section that was a lot more vague on all that.

Maybe it is just me, but it seems like these sorts of things are much harder to find in this version of the PHB than it has been in previous versions.

Our FTF group has decided to chuck all of the modern books and going back to our modified 2E rules

I can understand that <g>

Actually thank Nep, Miked. He sent that to me, interestingly to support the position that Proficiency does add to damage. So it is clear how unclear the writing is. But I think the way it is written points to Proficiency not counting to damage, otherwise it would have been mentioned as it was for Strength and Dex.

I agree Zeim. I think that the sections that you were quoted show pretty clearly that Prof bonus is not a part of damage.

I agree too. Just had to get home to see my PHB. It wouldn't be the first time I misunderstood the book...won't be the last

Dodge makes no sense as a tactic.

It forces opponents to attack with disadvantage.
It gives you advantage on dexterity saving throws.

So, let's say you and your goblin foe dance around, him trying to hit you and you never striking him. He has his chances diminish greatly to hit you. But if you never attack, you NEVER hit. Let's say he hits only 20% of the time now. Still, after 10 rounds you got hit twice (probably enough to kill you) but he's at full hit points!

I don't understand using it unless there was some roleplay thingy where you needed to last 10 rounds sparring with the Mountain.

Here's a possible scenario to use it. Say you are a Wizard. You've cast a concentration spell. An enemy tries to attack you. The fighter in your party is two rounds away from coming to your aid. You don't want to stop your spell, which will happen if you take damage. So rather than attack the enemy in front of you and thereby offer him a normal return attack, you Dodge. He has lots of trouble hitting you and you can maintain your spell.

Or another. You are closing with an enemy archer who is 3 rounds of movement away. You move towards him every round but your yourself have no ranged attack. You Dodge, thereby closing while making his missile shots at you harder. (BTW, this is specifically something Chandan could do with his Dodge action if he is more than 1 move action away from the archer and wants to close to HTH range).

And a third scenario. You have entered a castle courtyard and there is a door to get inside across a large open courtyard. Archers are firing down at you from battlements above. You run across the courtyard, using the Dodge action to reduce the archers chances to hit you. (Note: This was one of the encounters at Gencon during the mass finale. Our group didn't do this but the group I assisted did.)

So, I think it does have some use, in specific circumstances. However the circumstances you posited, a single 1-1 physical hth melee, I agree it makes little sense.

Unless, in that 1-1 melee you are a Wizard and you've cast Witch Bolt at the enemy in front of you. You are automatically doing 1d12 of damage to that enemy every round as long as he stays within 30 feet of you and your concentration remains unbroken (so you can't take damage). So you have no need to attack him, you are already doing him damage. You just need to stay near him and not be hit.

Nice examples, Zeim.

Again, in Chandan's example, can he draw fire from the goblin archers? He might not get a chance to attack, but if they all attacked him and missed, for example, that would be a major coup for the party as a whole.

How would you determine whether the goblins chose to attack Chandan? Are there tricks and taunts like there are in Savage Worlds? Or is that a non-mechnical decision?

Btw, Chandan will just move and attack if that's quickest to resolve. I just wanted to learn more about the D&D 5e mechanics.

There is no "Taunt" action I can see. There may be a spell that does that. I think it is DMs discretion whether or not your insults anger the Goblins and draw their fire.

If you are within move range of a physical attack, and you want to attack, you might as well just move up and roll to-hit. If you are not in movement range this turn, and have to close, then you could do what I mentioned above and Move while Dodging to close and then attack next round.

It seems to me that the taunt thing would be under GM fiat.

So for example, telling a goblin that it's mother eats raw meat would likely elicit a 'yeah, doesn't everyone?' sort of response. Telling the same goblin that it's mother bathes regularly might send it into a blind rage <weg>

The goblins are going to target you 1-on-1 as much as possible. I don't think there's a taunt opportunity there. Considering the way the dice roller is working, they might be taunting you <weg>.

Zeim, your examples makes sense but unless there's something else special that a PC is trying to accomplish, it's a negative action.

Gypsy asked about advantage. I figure to answer it for everyone...


For the most part to gain it you need to do something to get it. A rogue will hide to gain advantage (and gain that extra "sneak" attack):



At this level, the rogue must take an regular action to be hidden or come up from behind an enemy. At 2nd level you can use a bonus action to hide (if you have a logical place to do so) and gain that advantage and the sneak dice!

The bard has abilities that give the party advantage and there are various abilities that grant advantage.

Well, certainly you get no attack, true. But there are some cases where that isn't bad, such as the examples I gave. It's not something to do all the time, absolutely agreed.

Interesting info in this about stealth...

My ruling for the Goblins was you know they are there, as you saw them hide. So you get an Active Perception check versus their Stealth to spot them hiding. If you spot them and attack they have 3/4 cover for moderate foliage. If you don't spot them and choose to attack anyway, you have Disadvantage and they have 3/4 cover. Since you know they are there their Hiding gives them no Advantage on their attack as as soon as they pop out from cover you see them without needing any checks.

What some of you chose to do was to "Ready and Action" and wait for them to pop out of cover and shoot.

So my ruling then was that they get to pop out and shoot, your Readied Action occurs right after their attack, but before they can take their Bonus Action to try to Hide again.

In effect, for the first item bolded above my "DM's" call was to eliminate both the Advantage on the attack and the Disadvantage for trying to hide after.

IMO it is a different thing to try to hide once an enemy has seen you and knows you are there, but you step behind a tree, than it is when you are hiding behind the tree before the enemy knows you are present. Once the enemy has seen you, when you step behind the tree the enemy does not think "wow, I guess he's gone. No need to worry about him anymore" and then starts whistling a happy tune and bends over to tie his shoes. Rather the enemy keeps his eye on that tree and waits for you to show up again. It is a different level of hiding.

So for Lingo, I know why you are asking. If he doesn't have advantage he loses his Sneak Attack unless he attacks an enemy who is next to an ally. So because the Advantage/Disadvantage thing is critical to a pc feature I can go with doing it the other way (was trying to save dice rolling). The Goblins and Lingo would have advantage on their attacks but would have disadvantage to hide. (Which means Lingo needs to roll another d20 on his Hide attempt and take the lower of that roll of his prior roll).

The rest of the process is the same. Anyone trying to spot the Goblins or Lingo can make an Active Perception roll versus the Hide Check. If you fail, you can attack with disadvantage. If you succeed you can attack normally.

BTW, that last bolded question is unclear to me. A rogue gets no benefit for "Stealth". He gets a benefit for having Advantage. Stealth has no direct impact on the Sneak Attack as you get it even if you are standing right in the face of an enemy, but you have an ally next to you who is also attacking it.

So above that all the other bolded questions seem to suggest they are recommending a rogue does have Advantage on the attack and disadvantage to re-hide. But in the second bolded question he says the rogue has advantage if he is hidden ONLY until he leaves cover, then in the last one he says the rogue only gets a Stealth benefit if hidden. Taken together that implies as soon as the rogue leaves cover he is no longer hidden and thus gets no stealth benefit?

Nothing in that seems unreasonable to me <g>

I =might= give the player the choice of 'advantage on attack - disadvantage on hide' ... verses ... 'disadvantage on the attack - advantage on the hide' or maybe 'straight up attack and advantage on hide' ... guess it would matter what sort of 'cover' the rogue was working with <g>

Not an unreasonable view of the situation Zein ... IMHO <wink>

Zeim, Let me clear up something. It's easy for you to assume that my post was about Lingo, it wasn't. I was answering Gypsy's question about Jaliera, but that's an easy assumption to make. The characters are pretty similar.

The continues to be much debate, even between the authors of this version, about how it all should work. But I agree with MikeD, your approach is reasonable.

Your approach to the readied action is appropriate. I too would never allow a readied action to equate to a 4e immediate interrupt. Once a combatant starts their actions, nobody can suddenly jump in to stop them.

The last bolded statement is very important. Rogues gain their sneak damage by gaining advantage. The PRIMARY way that they gain advantage is by being stealthy - hiding. When they hide, the opponent doesn't know you are where you are so they don't anticipate the attack coming from where it comes, so the attack comes with advantage.

OK, but does it not seem to you that taking the second and 4th point listed together means they are saying a rogue loses his stealth as soon as he move from cover and therefore cannot sneak unless he attacks FROM cover?

Examples:

- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. He fires his bow at a passing wagon while still behind the tree. He gets his sneak.
- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. An enemy walks past the tree and the rogue stabs him as he passes the tree. He gets his sneak.
- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. An enemy is passing by 15 feet away. He runs out from behind the tree and stabs the enemy. He does NOT get his sneak as he has broken cover.
- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. As a wagon passes by he steps out from behind the tree to fire. He does NOT get his sneak as he has broken cover.

Is that how you interpret 2 and 4?

I don't know how you got that from what I said
Your last two bullets:

- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. An enemy is passing by 15 feet away. He runs out from behind the tree and stabs the enemy. He gets a sneak attack only if the enemy doesn't see him.
(Ex: he approaches quietly from behind)

- A rogue is hiding behind a tree. As a wagon passes by he steps out from behind the tree to fire. He gets his sneak attack only if the enemy doesn't see him
(Ex: he's behind them and the wagon is moving forward and that's where the occupants are looking)

In other words, I am going to be lenient with this rule as long as the player roleplays it properly. A stealthy character is not going to give it up easily. Additionally, I won't take away the one ability that the rogue class offers. It's too prohibitive. Odds are that if the rogue has successfully stealth, he's getting his sneak attack. There's very little that I'll do as a DM to take that away.

Look at point two and four in your link:




They state:

- Could a rogue hidden behind cover run to a target and sneak attack; are the hidden until after attacking or until after leaving cover? Answer: Hidden until leave.

- If a rogue attacks an enemy after emerging from a cover source, does he still gain benefit of stealth in the attack? Answer: Only if still hidden when making the attack.

So, the first point states as soon as they leave cover they are no longer hidden. The next one states that if they are not hidden they do not gain any stealth benefit.

So I would rule that as long as the rogue attacks WHILE hidden he gets to use stealth. If he comes out from cover to attack he loses his stealth benefit. In the example in the Z-Goblin Ambush thread, Lingo would gain stealth benefit when he fires from where he is, hidden under the wagon. But if he started the turn hidden, and then moves out from under the wagon into the open to fire, he loses his stealth benefit.

Also, to answer Gypsy's question about hitting an ally if she fired into melee, I think since the class has a benefit specifically for firing into melee that you have little chance of hitting an ally. Perhaps on a natural 1.

We don't always have to agree.

Rule 1: The GM is free to make what ever 'adjustment' is needed to make the game fun

Truism: No two GMs are the same.

Now in this particular instance ... looking at the last to 'controversial' examples, =I= think the 'sweet spot' in the adjudication is somewhere between the two examples.

Here is the 'deciding factor' IMHO. Can the stealthy rogue's 'stealth' when leaving cover (so taking penalties for moving and the like) 'beat' the target's passive perception? Or if the target is on alert for some reason, the target's active perception? Or if the rogue is having to move a lot ... or move through noisy terrain, perception with advantage (or maybe stealth with disadvantage ... see truism above <g> ) .... and so on.

It all goes back to rule 1 - the whole idea that there is not a separate rule of every conceivable situation (4e concept). There are 'broad' rules that the GM 'adjusts' to each particular situation as (s)he sees fit to support rule 1 <g>

Make sense?

Absolutely.

Brilliant discussion you guys are having, and I bet if it was on Reddit we'd be getting a thousand hits a day from gamers wanting an expert opinion.

Still, it's a tad unfortunate that the first encounter of the first adventure of the first publication of 5e is so perturbatory.

I wonder if WotC will clarify this in an errata or second printing.

I think this is more the fact that a bit of this is left open to DM interpretation and since we have two DMs here we have two slightly different interpretations. If Neptune or I were running this game alone we'd make a decision and move on and we'd not be having this in depth analysis.

The first answer to this is that Zeim and I are rules lawyers to the extreme. Our FTF group LOVED 4e because of all the strict rules. We are debating here because we're going to need to turn around and adjudicate for our pals who once spent 4 hours debating how far into the hall a fireball would extend if cast into a room that is smaller than the volume of the fireball. We have a physicist, an actuary and a bunch of IT sysadmins who snore during non-combat encounters. So, this is a selfish argument for us.

The second point is that the nature of this new version is that they WANT to be somewhat vague. WOTC's answer is "The DM gets to decide". Wait till we get to the discussion about the area affect of a cone! We presented that to them at Gencon and got a few different answers until someone came up with a brilliant idea.

This is probably why the DM Guide will be the last book published. Feedback is going to alter the way things are judged.

Actually Neil, I think it was exactly what we wanted based on the premise that this was to be a game to explore the new version <g>

Not that I want all that to get in the way of the adventure.

I'm a bit like you guys actually. I like to get my teeth into a rule set.

Based on this discussion, I Googled this encounter* and found quite afew players seem to have hit the curb at this point in the adventure.

I was thinking this might give a bad first impression, so they might change or clarify it some how.

*Interesting reading btw, recommend doing likewise. Some DM's interpretations were seriously OTT. TPK in the first encounter!

I saw a lot of the same sort of thing at GenCon. I think that the TPK thing is GMs familiar with previous versions missing the point of the new version ... that the GM is supposed to do what is needed to make the game fun for the players since a TPK is never fun for the players <wink>

Yeah, I started feeling that the game became more adversarial then story telling. I can honestly say that in 28 years of playing with my current FTF group, we have never had a TPK. Got close once in that we dragged our sorry butts out with a total of -7 hit points between us but only lost one player and it was our fault.

In the final battle of "Halls of the High King", a Moonshae module, a single PC, with about 10 hp left, survived the battle. Hundreds of bodies littered the battlefield. That was as close as I ever got to TPKing a party.

Years ago I used to play at conventions in CA with the creator of Arduin, Dave Hargrave. His favorite convention run was the Elimination Dungeon. It was designed to TPK by attrition. The goal as a PC was to be smart enough to survive. Quite the exercise, but not something I relish as a player or a GM other than once or twice a year at a con.

I =hate= killing players as a DM. Sure drop somebody below zero and let them be healed, but permanently killing? Nope. I feel like I failed in running the game when that happens. Now if a player of a 1st level pc decides he is going to charge headlong and attack an ancient red dragon, and after gently reminding him of the reality of the situation he won't change his mind, there is nothing I can do. But I won't do it gratuitously.

I don't mind if a player gets themselves killed by doing something really stupid. But I agree Zeim. In almost 30 years of running at GenCon I can count then number of players I have killed on one hand <g>

We needed you as our DM for the finals of the D&D Championship tournament last year!

Our DM made a bee-line for our cleric (my PC) and focused fire on him to insure we had no healing and then proceeded to TPK us there.

Well there is a reason I only ever judged D&D Championship sorts of games one time. It is designed to a grinder and I was always more about then fun of play for the players rather than the challenge of the players staying alive.

Oh I never run my games that way. Sure a threat of loss is always a nice thing to make it a challenge. But TPK, nah. PC death should be something planned and utilized for story purposes. Not just a waste because of die rolls.

BTW, the reason I am pushing the encounter in the Z-Ambush thread so much faster than the other group is that as of Sunday morning I am heading off to Barcelona for a week and I don't know how much posting I'll be able to get in. I wanted to do my best to wrap up the encounter before I go.

We appreciate that Zeim. Have a safe and fun trip!

Can Ryssa cast any Cure Wounds at the cantrip level? If so, how would it go? 1d4+3?

I was just wondering... she only has one 1st level spell left for the day.

There is no healing cantrip. Only thing close is Spare the Dying which basically stabilizes someone and keeps them from bleeding out and dying.

Pretty much what I thought...

Pande,

But that is the point of the 'campionship' games. They are meant to be grinders. As I said, though, not the style of game I like <g>

Probably the BEST minor healing there is would be the paladin's lay on hands. The paladin can dole it out one hp at a time, if so desired. So if a 1st level paladin in a party of 6 was the only one left conscious after a battle, he or she could heal all 5 other characters, giving them 1 hp per person.

Hey nice new 'icon' Nep <g>

Thanks. It seemed appropriate and he looks just like me

Ex - Yeah, since everyone has the ability to 'self-heal' to a certain extent in this version by using their Healing Hit Dice, the most important feature of a Cleric's healing is during combat. Other pcs can only do their own healing during a short rest. Once combat ends I'd recommend you save your spell and let everyone self-heal.

Nertz. Crossposted with Neil. Will adjust target to any other viable goblin if necessary.

No problem. Without a tactical (which I did make) you guys really were just swinging at numbers. Battle is over. You win!

As a note, since I forgot to write both Divine Sense and Lay on hands on my sheet, I will be adding or editing. Yet I wanted to point out Lay on Hands is 5 x lvl. So 5 points for 1st.

For some reason I had it in my head that he wasn't really a Paladin till a higher level. Must be from reading 13th Age recently. ;P

A couple of questions:

I read about the healing everyone can do in a short rest, so it makes no sense for Karok to heal anyone post battle unless we don't have time for a short rest. Correct?

Secondly, I have Soldier background with the Specialty of Healer. Does that do anything for me? Does the skill medicine do anything? And what does a Healer's kit do for me?

Also, do you care about Gods. I didn't see any of the dwarf Gods listed in what I have like Moradin or Clangedin.

If you mean use a spell, probably correct. I would preserve healing for combat.

The medicine skill lets you stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness.

Backgrounds are an attempt to emphasize roleplaying by helping to describe your character. The tactical features are minimal. The soldier background with a healer specialty means that you were a medic.

The healers kit gives you the ability to stabilize PC's with 0 hit points (unconscious) 10 times without needing to roll a wisdom skill check.

Moradin is listed in the PHB under non-human deities. Clangedin doesn't appear. I expect that WOTC will publish a Deities and Demigods book somewhere down the line. Remember that the Monster Manual and DM Guides are not out yet (officially). Do I care? I do if it helps you play your character, give him substance and motivation. I mostly care if you care. Whatever makes you, the player, feel integrated into the game, is a good thing.

Not =exactly= Nivek. The 'self healing' is =very= limited (especially at our level <g> ) We only get one 'hit die' of healing until we take a long rest. So it is quite conceivable that someone might need more healing than that one HD after combat has finished <g>

Yes. Agree with all said. Also, since pcs only get that 1HD/lvl per long rest it is possible, if multiple encounters occur in the same day, that they'll run out.

The background is partly to give you RP flavour (such as giving you an ability to get benefits from other soldiers you run into), but it also gives you training in added skills other don't get (Athletics and Intimidation in this case).

Okay, so it still sounds like everyone should use their own healing first. And rely on us when they're out.

Also, did I read that if you're dying out or below 0, healing just takes you to 0, no higher? If so, was it a waste to heal Kallista? Not because she was dying, but I could have stabilized her to 0 for nothing, then healed her?

Just trying to figure out my exact role.

Most PC's have no way to heal themselves during combat. They can expend hit dice during short rests. Fighters have the second wind ability to self heal 1d10+level.



You got that all wrong.

• You never go below 0.
• When you heal, the full healing is added to 0. So when you healed Kallista she regained all those points.
• When a combatant is reduced to zero hit points they have to start making death saves. If you get 3 failures before you get 3 successes, you are dead.
• Stabilizing an unconscious PC means they no longer need to make death saving throws. A stabilized PC remains unconscious.

expend hit dice or recover hit dice? Not sure I'm following you here.

Every player has "hit dice". It's on your sheet and depends on your class. Ryssa is a cleric so she has 1d8 per level "hit dice".

During a short rest a PC can heal themself. It's a way to self heal.
From the D&D Basic Rules

It is a poorly named ability as it makes it far too easy to confuse with Hit Points. It should have been called "Healing Dice" or some-such.

But basically whatever your Hit Die are (i.e. 1d8 for a 1st level clerics, 2d8 for a second level cleric), can ALSO be used as healing dice during short rests. It doesn't have any impact on your normal Hit Points, all it does it allow you to regain damage that is presumed to have come from Fatigue and small bumps and bruises during battle while you take a breather.

So a Clerics most important job, as far as Healing goes, is to be able to Heal DURING battle. Most pcs can't do that. Once battle is over pcs who can heal themselves should do so so the cleric can save his healing spells for combat.

I understood the concept but wasn't sure about the wording itself.

So basically you can take an hour rest and recover up to all of your hit points. That seems overly generous to me, but again... what the heck.

Thanks...

It is a very pulpy style feel common to many games. Generally most systems involve periodic moments of combat followed by times of rest which this plays to. It would be easy to have a grittier feel with very little adjustment. It is all about the groups preferred flavor.

You take an hour rest and roll your hit dice (healing dice). For Ryssa it is 1d8+1 so 2-9pts.

Note that at 1st level you can do this once per day. At 20th you do it 20 times.

Healing was one of the big debates during play-test. This is a pulling back from the 4e healing surges. You could use any number of them during short rests.

One clarification ... moot at this point since we are all first level and so only have 1 'healing' die <w> Anyway, my understanding is that you can 'expend' (i.e. roll) as many of your (remaining) 'healing' dice as you like during a short rest. It is not one hour per die.

Right. A 20th level pc could expend all 20 Healing Dice during one short rest if he needed to.

I understand and agree, Nep, except that, for Ryssa, it would be 1d8+2 instead of 1d8+1 wouldn't it? Since her CON is 14.

OK, leaving tomorrow for Barcelona. Won't be returning to regular posting until a week from Monday, September 22nd. I am taking my reference materials with me so if I have time to get in a few posts during the week I will, but I expect to be much slower.

Either Nep can post for me and run Lingo as an NPC or we can just slow down a bit until I get back.

Ex, Yes.

Have a great trip!

Yes, have a good time Zeim!

Can you recoup any HP from a short rest? Hit Points are one thing we do need.

Yes. See the discussion about using hit dice earlier in this thread starting around here.

Thanks Nep. If Chandan can heal 1d8+2 on a short rest, that's all he'll need. Might vary for everyone else.

Yes, just keep in mind he can only do that once per day.

No sense in waiting, I reckon -- he's 50% down, 5 hp with a 2-10 hp heal -- if he gets hit a next time, he'll be lucky to make it to a short rest.

Slight expansion on Zeim's reply ... at 1st level you only have 1 HD (healing die) which you use, and do not recover until you take a long rest.

You get another HD at each level (2 at 2nd, 5 at 5th, etc.) ... and can use as many as you like at any short rest ... so long as you still have HD left <g>

Make sense?

Sure does.

The real question is "do you need a long rest?" This group took significant damage. You've expended your magical healing. If someone drops, it's over. Dangerous times. Remember, you don't get to memorize spells during short rests.

right, but balanced against that is the fact that we have people to save.

Are they beautiful maidens?

Eh, all you mammals look alike to me. Probably.

I haven't used any spell healing yet.

That's good news. I have a feeling you'll need it.

I used one but the ignorant PC I healed turned right around and got hit again.

Hey now I resemble that remark. And expect me to get hit again. Something about being a large bronze target.

Nice group pic in the gallery!

Thanks! I promised Zeim I would make one for his group too but I never got around to it this weekend. It's high up in my to-do list.

I look forward to seeing our group picture. And thanks for the effort on our behalf.

Thanks, Nep. Looks good.

agreed!!

Very cool composite.

Am leaving on Monday for another business trip. Won't be back until Friday. Posting will be very light during that time.

Guys, I think while you're all chatting that last goblin is still alive. We both missed (AC15) unless something has changed. So you may all want to edit your posts in order until one of you can finish it off. I know Karok would appreciate it. I'm sure the last thing you want is a surly dwarf healer on your hands.

Edited accordingly.

Yup. Also a miss it seems. Need Jaliera and Chandan to attack.

Nivek, I've moved ahead to the next round. Everyone from the top again.

Also, to address the weapon use and swaps. I will always allow the drop the bow, whip out shield and sword as "free". The goblins all swapped weapons once engaged but I should have been more explicit about it. You can see that they used the scimitars last round.

Also, read pg 70 of the Basic Rules v2 or page 190 the PHB for a list of examples of such actions. Maybe this is more permissive than you want to allow in games that you run, but I want to run it like this. The next time it probably works in your favor.

You probably wanna put that post in your thread Nivek. It might get overlooked here in the OOC thread <chuckle>

OK, I will amend my post

Oops too late and I think it is dead now! She'll continue to cover the entrance to the cave.

lol It does present a great scene though, with the dwarf still laying into the goblin while everyone else stands by and chats.

D&D adventurers really are a scary lot.

But yeah, I think a free drop and swap will work in favour of the PCs overall, since they're the ones most likely to micro their abilities, and also have multiple loadouts.

One thing's for sure, you can draw a sword massively quicker than you can notch an arrow!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udyhpBqENeU

You realize ... that only works if you are wearing sandals and a dress, right? <gd&r lmao>

Flipflops and a sarong count?

Close enough <chuckle>

Time for the argument And for the record,

Lingo can attack the wolf because he was not surprised. Had the wolf stayed hidden, he wouldn't but as soon as a critter comes out of hiding, he's an available target. Period. Even Lingo, when he hides.

So let's say Lingo is hiding behind a rock (or Bern - same thing), he steps out and fires at a critter. If they were NOT surprised, they can now target Lingo in the surprise round.

Lingo was surprised. By all enemies except one Goblin.

Otherwise, true enough. You are correct. I edited my post to indicate the Wolf has come out of hiding and is now a viable target.

In which case the only advantage to Surprise is it gives you Advantage on your attack (which I forgot to roll versus Lingo btw. Just added it, and still missed. ;-) ). So, unless you have some special ability to use when you have surprise (Like the Rogue's bonus damage when he has Advantage, which Surprise gives), gaining Advantage on your attack is all you really get. Plus, importantly, the fact that those ahead of you in the initiative order who don't see you can't target you.

BUT - According to the rules: "If you're surprised (meaning your PP is less than your foe's Stealth Check) you cannot move or take an action or reaction on the first turn of combat". It also says "A member of a group can be surprised even if other members aren't."

So, Lingo's PP was less than the Stealth rolls of every enemy in the room except for 1 Goblin. That should mean he is surprised by all the enemies except 1 Goblin and cannot move or take an action against anyone except that one Goblin (or now the Wolf too since it has revealed itself).

So the only ones who would fall under that rule about not being able to move or attack during round 1 would be those whose PP fails against EVERY enemy?

So, in effect we are saying that in order to be able to attack when you have surprise, but not be attacked back (and when others of your allies do not have surprise), you should "Delay" until the whole party has gone without revealing yourself. Then you jump out and attack at the end of the round? That seems silly.

No. You got it wrong.
Surprise means I cannot act during the first round. Period.
There is no "partial" surprise.

So anyone that detected anyone can act and attack anyone that they see. Feel free to ask in the WOTC thread for this:

Ask a simple question....

Oh, and here's a really good write-up of it....

Stealth, hiding and you!

Which is what I posted. You can only attack those you can see. Those who are seen by no foes have Surprise on those foes who can't see them (goes for both the party and the enemy).

If you fail in your PP versus all foe's Stealth you cannot act (no one falls into this category as everyone can see at least 1 foe).

There is no wrong, btw. From the site you sent me to: (where I asked the question btw. We'll see what the responses are.)

"I think the most important thing to note is the devs have stated in videos and on twitter that the DM is supposed to make "rulings" on stealth scenarios, and that the rules are intentionally vague to facilitate such. From memory Mearls gave an example ruling, he said if a lightfoot halfling tries to hide in the same spot twice in one combat (eg behind an ally), then his ruling would be that that could be possible, but to use common sense, and that he would impose disadvantage on the check."

Zeim,

I agree with Nep that there really are =two= benefits for the person with surprise. First, they cannot be targeted by the surprised person, second they have advantage in their attacks against the surprised person.

Now, if you go with group surprise, it is the same for all the characters all are surprised ... vs ... the surprisers. In the case of our group in this situation, it didn't seem like all of our group would have been surprised by all of theirs ... so I agree that individual surprise is reasonable. But I could also envision a similar set up where it =might= be reasonable for group surprise.

As to who can do what ... that is a lot more complicated with individual surprise. Your way is certainly 'better' for our group, but there is a different interpretation. That is: because they were 'set' for an 'ambush' ... the bad guys would all get their actions and we would not. =But= any attacker that attacks someone that did see them would not get advantage on their attack.

The former is, I think a bit more 'realistic' (at least in this situation since we were on the look out for trouble ... unlike the initial ambush on the road) while the latter seems to be more in keeping with the 'letter of the law'. However, one of the tenets of the new version is that the rules are guidelines now and not 'cast in stone', as it were, so you can, =I= think, go with either interpretation and be well within your GM rights =and= still adhering to the spirit of the game.

Does that make sense (whether you agree with it or not <g> )

The rules make it more than your first sentence, MikeD. They say if you are surprised you cannot move or act or react. So that kind of implies it has to be an all or nothing thing. Partial surprise (being surprised by some but not others) seems not to work well with that rule. After all, if you are surprised by some monsters but not others, then how does the rule "If you are surprised you cannot move, act or react" work in that case?

There is another way too, and I might use it, or at least leave it open for discussion.

You make a single "Group" Stealth roll for the monsters. You use whichever monster has the worst Stealth check in order to account for the fact that stealthier monsters would have a penalty for hanging out with less stealthy ones.

Then you compare the pc's =individual= PP against that monster group stealth check to see who is and is not surprised. Any pc whose PP is below the monster's group stealth check is surprised and cannot act. Those whose PP is above the monster group stealth check can see and attack anyone on their turn (with possible adjustments to AC for cover).

That seems to follow the rules.

Problem comes in if pcs are all stealthing too. But then I guess the party makes a group stealth check (again using worst stealth adjustment for the group) and you compare monsters individual PP against pc group stealth check to see which of them are surprised.

It gets messy quickly, though. Some pcs are surprised by some monsters but not others, and some monsters are surprised by some pcs but not others. Who gets to move/act and who doesn't?

Much cleaner to have a single group stealth roll for the side trying to sneak/hide, and individual PPs to see who is surprised. And if both are trying to stealth then you have both sides make a single group stealth roll (with worst adjustment from both sides) and whoever rolls highest has surprise over the other. Tie no one does. Perhaps if you don't win by at least 5 no one does?

Hmm. I am liking that last paragraph so far.

Thoughts?

Zeim,

Yes, that is the situation best illustrated by that initial 'ambush' (as I mentioned above <g> )

The 'group check' idea is certainly a reasonable option and it is certainly much easier to adjudicate <g> But I have to say that I think your version where the monsters that fail are seen and those that did not are still 'unknown' and vice versa.

The 'gets messy' part is why lots of GMs will opt for the group checks ... especially at the time limited setting of a convention, for example.

Lets look at the various options ...
1. Group vs group check and one group is surprised or no group is surprised.
2. Group vs group, but individuals can have advantage or not depending on how the individual perceptions succeeded (that is the option that I described)
3. Individual vs individual ... depending on who sees who ... which is what you initially were going with.

I think all three versions are justifiable. Pick which ever variation you are happy with. I don't have a problem with any of them. They are all reasonable <g>

The most realistic, in some sense, is #3.

A key quote from Stealth, hiding and you! A mini guide thread is:



In other words, it's really up to the DM to decide what happens no matter what the "rules" say. Vague rules give DM's the leeway to adjust the narration the way that they think it makes sense to them. So, whatever makes sense in DM's mind is how they should rule.

On the one hand it's frustrating when the DM has to explain every decision. On the other hand it's liberating to be able narrate.

Yeah. I think except for the error Neptune pointed out that once the person with Surprise (the Wolf in this case) exposes himself and attacks, he is fair game for whoever is left to go, it is the most realistic (if also the most complicated to adjudicate).

My issue, though, is what it lends itself to is this: The best tactic for the Wolf (presuming it wants to attack with no chance of it opening itself up to attack on Round 1), and presuming it has Stealth/Surprise on everyone, is to "Delay" and let everyone else go first. None can attack it as none can see it. Then, after all have gone, it gets to attack whoever it chooses, w/Advantage, and by that time (when it is finally revealing itself) the round is ending and we go back to the top of the Initiative order for Round 2. Yes, it will go last each round from then on, but that's the only down-side.

But perhaps that also is a realistic result? It stays hidden, watching and waiting to see how the initial battle plays out, then it pounces from hiding?

BTW, Bern is up in the "Z" thread.

First (because it came up earlier) I'm using the same individual stealth/surprise approach for this encounter but the tactical situation in the N-game is very different.

As for the wolf, you could roll a "hidden" DM intelligence check to see if the wolf picks up on that strategy. Otherwise you could determine that it resorts to the raw animal instinct to attack.

Well, I think my problem is that there is a slight difference to what MikeD said were the benefits of Surprise. Yes, you get to attack with Advantage, but the point about not being able to be targeted is the issue.

First that only applies until you act/attack. Once you reveal yourself you can be attacked, that means if you have initiative, and act, you effectively lose that benefit.

However what is not clear is the rule specifically say not only that you can't be targeted, but that a person who is surprised cannot act. That is a bigger thing. If you cannot act then it does not matter if your enemy reveals himself and attacks you. You cannot act, So even if he attacks you you cannot attack him back or even move. But how can you not be able to move/act against one foe yet still be able to move against another? I understand that you might be able to attack one enemy but not another, but moving is moving.

One other thing. All of the rules discussions on this topic have one thing in common, with which I agree. You have to have something to hide behind to get the Stealth advantage in most cases. Yes, if the enemy isn't alert and you make no noise you might be able to sneak up on them, but in the case of the current encounter, with a warned and alert enemy who is hiding and watching the cavern entrance carefully, you cannot walk into the room, thru the cave entrance they are all watching, and stand next to the fire, in the open, and not be seen. No matter what you roll on your stealth check. Lingo is an exception as he has the ability to hide behind Bern, but Bern really should have been seen by all the enemies. We'll leave it be for now as we're in mid-melee but common sense should rule.

Lingo also gets his "sneak" damage when attacking an enemy that is adjacent to an ally of Lingo's.

Yeah, sorry Zeim, I didn't specifically include that part. I agree that, if you are doing 'individual' surprise, the wolf is in trouble once it attacks. The question for me is ... would the wolf have enough intelligence to know that it should wait for best effect. Hell, I am not sure that the bugbear would have =that= much smarts <chuckle>

Yes, agreed. My heartburn comes from the rule that says "If you are surprised you cannot move, attack, or react". It doesn't specify "if you are surprised by ALL foes" then you can't move, act, or react. It almost implies that in order to be surprised you MUST be surprised by ALL foes. So what happens if you are surprised by SOME foes? Or does that rule mean that Surprise is all or nothing?

How many people waiting in ambush need to make their presence obvious before the trap is sprung before people notice the danger from that position?

Ah, but what if there are 3 foes and one remains in hiding while two attack? Sure you see those two, but the third one springs out at you just as your back it turned, and should have surprise, no?

Zeim,

That is the point of that first option ... where it is party vs party ... it is =much= easier to adjudicate <wink>

I came to some conclusions about surprise and hiding that I want to share.

Surprise is a global thing for a PC.

If a PC sees even 1 enemy, he is able to act in the round and is not surprised even if other enemies are stealthy and hidden. The PC cannot attack a hidden creature but he gets to act in the round. If the enemy emerges from hiding and attacks, he can be attacked by PC's that have not yet acted that round.

The bugbear (as an example) has an ability to dole out extra damage if he surprises an enemy. I'm interpreting that the same way as a rogue's sneak dice. It really should be worded differently. So, if the bugbear stays hidden, and the party attacks the goblins it's sees, the bugbear would get that extra damage if it attacked an unsuspecting PC. BTW, that bugbear would also roll with advantage.

Anyway, that's how I'm running it because it makes sense to me.

Agree with that. How do you deal, though with a situation where the pcs see 1 out of 3 enemies, so they are not surprised and can act, but can only see one foe. The first pc kills that foe. The rest can act, but can't see anyone. What do they do? Just delay?

I am still liking this approach I posted earlier:

"Much cleaner to have a single group stealth roll for the side trying to sneak/hide, and individual PPs to see who is surprised and who is not for the other side. And if both are trying to stealth then you have both sides make a single group stealth roll (with worst adjustment from both sides) and whoever rolls highest has surprise over the other. Tie no one does. Perhaps if you don't win by at least 5 no one does?"

In the case where some in a group are being stealthy and others are not I think I am going to rule if the ones trying to be stealthy are not far enough ahead to avoid being exposed by the others with them who are being noisy, they lose their stealthiness. Probably one move distance (30 feet) away. You can always try to hide as long as there are things to hide behind, but for surprise you can't be walking right next to a rattling tank and expect no one to notice.

Yeah, delay. They think they're done. In fact, they probably are letting down their guard so I would roll another stealth for the enemy and if they don't give themselves away, I would grant surprise again.

I would tend to go with Neptune's version of this if I was running, but that is a personal opinion. I think that Zeim's take is =just= as 'valid' an interpretation of the rules and, FWIW, I am quite OK with using that variation here <g>

I think I said the same thing as Nep, MikeD. Other than the situation where both groups are trying to be stealthy at the same time. Otherwise what Nep said and what I said are the same (or at least they are in my mind, though some have said I am not in my right mind <g>).

OK, a few people are making Skill checks incorrectly. All of your Skills are based on one of your stats. See the jpeg below. On the pc sheet it lists which Skill applies to each Skill. Perception and Insight are "Wisdom" based skills. That means you add your Wisdom adjustment to any roll you make for those skills. You also get to add your proficiency bonus if you are Proficient in that Skill. So, for example, with a Wisdom of 16 (+3 adjustment) if you make a Perception roll it is:

1d20+3 or 1d20+5 (if you are Proficient in Perception and your Proficiency modifier is +2).

I have noted that on many of the pc sheets people have only listed the skills they are trained in, and seem to be assuming that they get no adjustment to any other skill. That is incorrect.

You get to add your Stat adjustment to EVERY skill. Certain skills use different Stats. Some use Str, some Dex, some Wis, some Int, and some Cha. Interestingly none use Con.

So, if your Int is 12, you get a +1 to any Skill roll based on Int.

I would really recommend that everyone edit their pc sheet in the Gallery and list every Skill with the appropriate modifier (Stat bonus + Prof bonus if proficient)

Zeim,

OK ... I read it a bit different between you and Nep, but that is ok ... I am OK with either version (as I interpreted the GM rulings) <g>

Also, FWIW, I am pretty sure that the sheet I sent you had all the listed skills showing those I was proficient in. Let me know if that is not the case.

Zeim,

I have added all those skills to my character sheet in the Gallery along with the modifiers.

Now, do you want me to re-roll for perception and insight or just add the modifiers to the results I got using only the 1d20's?

No. We will use your rolls. Just wanted you to be aware you got a +3 modifier to all checks based on Wisdom.

I Think Jaliera's are OK.. but then I did model her sheet on Kallista's as you suggested Zeim.

Can I use my Guidance cantrip on my own character to help with a climbing roll?

Unless it specifically says you can't I don't see why not.

Dugan> Yes. Of course. It's an action so you could cast it and move (climb) but you would not be able to attack or cast another spell that round.

I decided to bring the Initiative discussion over here to get it out of the game thread.

As much as I like the new D&D, they seem to have gone to exceptional lengths to make it difficult to find/figure stuff out <sigh>

So the question at hand was about initiative and whether it got your 'proficiency' bonus. It seems comes down to whether you are 'proficient' in initiative as a skill. Sadly, even after I read through the stuff in a couple of places a couple of times I could not find a definitive answer.

=But= the seems to =Imply= that you treat it as a simple Dex check, no proficiency bonus.

My 'confusion' on the subject comes from past versions where initiative improved base on level ... hence my assumption that it improved. If you assume it is a straight Dex Check, then a dexy 1st level could have the advantage over a seasoned professional of ... say 10th level ... which seems counter intuitive to me and contrary to past thinking.

Comments encouraged <g>

Well, it can improve as you go up levels IF you spend the points you get every 4 levels to improve your Dex Stat. A 10th level pc has a much better chance of having a higher Dex than a 1st level pc does. A higher Dex means a better Dex bonus which carries to Initiative.

Now naturally a 1st level Rogue who makes Dex his highest starting stat might have a better Initiative than a 10th level cleric who focuses on improving his Wisdom. But I don't necessarily see a problem with that.

I actually understand not using a Prof bonus for Initiative. Initiative does not seem like the kind of thing that can be improved by training, like Stealth, Medicine, Arcana, or any of the other Skills. Initiative is effectively "Reaction Time", which is based mostly on your raw Dexterity.

I agree with Zeim. Even comparing two characters of the same profession, I do not see a problem having a level 1 rogue winning initiative over a level 10 rogue. Sure, it should be uncommon that it will happen, but if a player wanted, for example a smarter rogue than a dexterous one and spent more points on Int than Dex, so be it.

Actually, I don't 'dislike' the idea. It was my confusion based on the 'change' the new version brought to the table that had me confused ... that and the difficulty in 'nailing that down' in the ... IMHO ... poorly organized PHB <g>

Mike, the "Basic Rules" PDF is very clear, IMO, about initiative and has it exactly where I would expect it, as one of the first things discussed, right after surprise.

Some abilities, like a thief reflexes at 17th level, can enhance it ... but there are not many such things. By the way, that's one of the big pluses of 5e over 4e IMO. 4e was all about giving players a way to buff their character. It's a lot harder in 4e.

I hadn't looked at the Basic Rules PDF for a =long= time <g> And I would expect the PHB to be at least as 'clear' as the free PDF <chuckle>



I don't disagree, as I said. It was the fact that it =is= such a big change and that it wasn't all that 'explicit' in the PHB that had me 'confused' <g>

Oh, and btw, using the Optional "Feats" rule allows you to select a Feat for your pc instead of taking the 2 bonus Statistic points, if you choose to (i.e. you can still take the 2 points if you want to).

One of the Feats is called "Alertness" and it gives you (among other things)a +5 to your Initiative.

Yeah, I remember seeing that feat ... now that you mention it <g>

The Alterness Feat gives:
1) +5 to Initiative
2) You can never be surprised
3) Hidden foes do not get Advantage when attacking you from cover

I am playing a higher level variation of Kallista in the new Horde of the Dragon Queen Game WoTC released at Gencon (actually Neptune and I are "tag-team" DM'ing it, alternating every chapter and playing each other's pc when we are not running) and I just made 4th level. It was a really close call for me whether to take Alertness or to take the 2 points and bump my Charisma stat up to 18.

Since a Warlock's spellcasting is based on Cha, and bumping that up to 18 gives me:

1) +1 to my attack roll
2) +1 to damage on my main attack
3) +1 to my spell DC for foes to save against
4) Various Skills improve by +1

I ended up choosing the Stat bump. But it was really close.

Yeah, that is another change - they have made stats a lot more important than they have been in the past <g>

I have Ryssa's (cleric) proficient skills set as Insight and Medicine. In Ed. 5, however, I don't see much advantage to being proficient in medicine except for possibility being better able to diagnose a particular type disease.

Do you think I'd be better off having her proficiencies set for Insight and Perception rather than Medicine?

I would go with Perception and Medicine for a Cleric. Medicine is a great Skill, especially for low level pcs. You get to add your Proficiency Bonus to the roll and it is the only way (other than a spell or lay-on-hands) to stop someone from making Death Saves without using a Healer's Kit.

If you have used your 2 Healing spells for the day and someone drops to zero and start failing Death Saves you will be very happy to be able to prevent them from dying so they can recover some hit points during a short rest.

I like that alertness!

You just have to balance that against the advantage of not taking the 2 extra points to put to your stats.

Choices, choices..

Okay, thanks for the advice.

A continuation about tactics from the "N" game.

I questioned Karok's (Nivek) cleric healing of himself while Kriv (AJ) was making death saves. Nivek's rational explanation was that if he was dead, the party was doomed. In the conversation there were other tactics questioned, like Chandan (nemarsde) splitting from the party. I also brought up focus-fire as a common standard tactic.

The discussion interests me but it's tangential to the game. So it moves here.

In 4e there was a whole book dedicated to strategy (Players Strategy Guide) where these types of tactics are discussed in great detail. We're now playing 5e so lots of those 4e specific tactics don't apply, but some do.

There's a whole page on common mistakes like this one:


What are some other tactics you employ? How do you think they'll work in 5e?

An example: Lingo, in Z's game, is using 1/2 his move to come out from full cover, fire an arrow and uses the balance of his move to get back behind cover. That's something he couldn't do in 4e.

As to tactics that still apply ...

1.) "Split the party and Die" still applies <wink>
2.) Keep the cleric alive at all costs is still valid.
3.) Party Balance is still important.
4.) Over extending =can= be a useful tactic, but it can be dangerous too. I miss my 3rd ed Dervish. Talk about a character that ignored 'the line', he was everywhere swatting things all along the way <chuckle>

At GenCon a year and a half ago, Zeim and I participated in the "Championship" tournament with some of our other friends. We were far ahead in 1st place after the first half which was basically all puzzles. In the second half, which was all pure melee, we made a tactical error, extending and separating from the cleric who was slow. The DM focused fire on the cleric, knocking him out first and thereby preventing him from healing the party. We lost.

One item Nep left out was we were encouraged to run ahead as fast as we could because we had to get to specific spots on the map quickly to use certain items to prevent an evil god from returning. But he's right that the Cleric, who was slower, was left behind and when enemies appeared suddenly, and unexpectedly, from behind us the Cleric was suddenly on the front line by himself.

Didn't turn out well for us.

It also didn't help that you decided to not to roll above a 5 for three or four rounds either!

Nice to hear that I am not the only one to have crappy rolls at GenCon <chuckle>

Yeah. In v4 any spell/effect that caused the "Daze" condition was sometimes critically important. We were fighting a demi-god who had multiple actions every turn that were all bad for us. My pc had an "At-Will" spell that caused "Daze", which would have limited the enemy to a single action. I rolled a 5 or lower for at least 4 or 5 consecutive turns.

Mike,
But you were a DM. It's good when DMs roll crappy at GenCon LOL

Yeah, but it often continued when I was playing <sigh>

Yeah, I had AJ and Silk putting a serious hex on my dice when I was running at that GypsyCon recently.

Almost as bad as having Gypsy sat next to me using her warlock powers!

(Whistles innocently.)

This came up in the "Z" game, and since we've been talking about healing recently I thought perhaps everyone might benefit:

Note that every one of you has a rated Skill in Medicine. You do not need to be Proficient in it to use it. I understand the normal thing to do in a situation where there's a dying pc or npc is to let the Cleric cast a healing spell, but there is no penalty for failing in an attempt to use Medicine. A success stabilizes the subject and no more Death Saves are needed, although they are still unconscious. If you have a Healer's Kit, you can automatically stabilize a dying person without needing to make a Medicine Skill check with one use of the kit, which comes with 10 uses. However because of the way this all works the Healer's Kit should really be an emergency back-up for when everyone fails a Medicine Skill check.

Reason I am re-enforcing this is in my game two pcs just effectively said they couldn't do anything to help a dying NPC so went to do something else. Both of those pcs have the ability to save this dying person's life and just walked past him and let him continue to die. If that's in your pc's personality, no problem. But I didn't want it to be due to misunderstanding of how Healing works.

I was waiting for Ryssa's turn - so the way you're saying, if the dying PC is not stabilized by her turn, she should try a Medicine skill check first instead of using her Healer's Kit?

Yes. Medicine Skill does the same thing as the Healer's Kit, it just requires a successful Skill Check whereas the Healer's Kit works automatically. You should save the Healer's Kit for those times when everyone fails a Medicine Skill check.

Obviously it doesn't bring them back to consciousness. You'd need to use a Healing Spell for that or take a Rest.

Rule says that once a person is stabilized they only have to make more Death Saves if they take more damage. Otherwise, if they are not healed, and don't use a Healing Die, they regain 1hp (i.e. become conscious) after 1d4 hours of rest.

well to me it is a question of how you think about it.

From a 'role' playing standpoint, Bern is the last person you would want trying to 'help' you stay alive ... in the same way you wouldn't want to have the frail wizard as your 'front line'. If things had gotten 'dire', (i.e. no one had been able to help him in a round or two) he would have been willing to give it a try.

From a 'roll' playing standpoint, I had thought that a failed 'medicine' check caused a death save fail. But when I looked in the PHB I couldn't find anything specific either way <shrug>

Yes, I found no penalty to failed Medicine Skill checks. In which case there's no downside to having the player with the worst number try it if you need to.

I will try to remember that <g>

Of course if anyone does find it buried somewhere in an obscure section please let me know

Updated character sheet to library. Also noted Cunning Action

Updated pc sheet in Gallery.

Updated my pc sheet in gallery, but do not know anything about skill advancement. Do I get another skill to pick from??

No. Other than a specific power based on a PC class, background, or race there is no way to Increase skills. Your Proficiency bonus goes up every few levels, which will increase skills you are proficient in, and there is an optional feat you can take that lets you become proficient in more skills but that is it.

I saw an interesting post in the WOTC forums about the difficulty levels in the Cragmaw Hideout, which the N-group just completed. What do you think?



By the way, that last sentence is similar to what did happen. In Zeim's game the PC's fought the Goblin Den battle. In my game they did not, choosing to parlay (a smart move considering how depleted the group was).

Hey we needed healing for Sildar who fell because a PC killed the goblin holding him and trying to parlay.

Just mentioning for both parties that as Neptune alluded to earlier, this section of the Module has a lot of role-playing in it.

Whereas the earlier section was a straightforward dungeon crawl. Fight and kill enemies. This section, in the town of Phandalin, has a lot of potential side-quests.

Many people you talk to have potential quests for the group and/or clues to the larger puzzle, so it might pay to take a breath and talk to a number of people and gather your options before deciding on anything specific to do next.

While I don't want to spend years of real-time in this one place, I'd recommend not rushing through it as you will miss the opportunity not only to learn stuff but also for Exps.

DMG came today!!

I am sure there will be plenty of things for Bern to get interested in <weg>

Got my DMG on Saturday!

And you kept the news to yourself? For shame! <g>

I'll be getting mine at Winter Fantasy ... for free <weg>

Zeim, Yeah. I should've shouted. I did my happy dance in front of the wife who doesn't need any more convincing that I'm out of my mind.

MikeD, Get that thing signed!

naw ... not a big fan of that sort of thing.

I've been away on business this past week, and am away again from tomorrow. Back on Friday! So in the meantime, here are some d20 rolls, courtesy of the official D&D Dice Roller!

6, 19, 16, 6, 9

Sounds good! We'll work with it

Cones and spheres don't work well on grids. None of you probably care, but me? I'm too obsessive compulsive to not care. And I know that that my FTF group all cares (when was the last time one of you saw a protractor used in a game?)

I need an example and I'm going to use Kriv's 15' Dragonborn cone breath weapon, because AJ used it in the game

The Player Handbook and DM Guide do not describe how to deal with this in a manner I'm comfortable with. In the DMG they have a chapter entitled "Adjudicating Areas of Effect" in which they say to "go with your gut". There you go. That really satisfies Mr. OCD! Fortunately, they do try and an extra step for whack-jobs like me. They say to take the size (15' cone) and divide by 10, rounding up. So, according to them, it would strike 2 creatures. I think that's unfair and arbitrary.

Even before the DMG was published, at GenCon this past August, Zeim and I asked the question and we spoke to one of the lead designers of the game (I think it was Jeremy Crawford) and we discussed a way to play with miniatures. The suggestion was to deal with some targets as getting the full direct attack and some, on the edges, getting advantage to avoid. I liked that idea and graphed it out Here's what I came up with. The greenish shaded squares get advantage. I tried to depict it work for 8 compass points:

I am so stealing this.
Thanks

My pleasure!

It's a gift

That looks a lot like the old 'examples' from ... 3rd ... or maybe 4th edition 'templates' for effects.

Probably. But this is in electronic format...

I know sounds weird but I do most of my gaming in the digital world. Sometimes I want a rule crunchy narrative like 13th Age for example.

It occurs to me that maybe Luminmorn might be better off not using his breath weapon. But I can't imagine a better scenario for it. And as a player exploring the game. I just want to see how it works.

So apologies from Pandemonium if I cause more harm than good.

Oh no ... I think it is great <g> We are here to explore and learn how things work. Nothing like sticking your finger in a light socket to learn the truth that your parents had always told you <chuckle>

OK, need all the "Z" game players to check in and let me know when you've finished leveling up so I can check your sheets. Once everyone is done we can proceed.

Oops, I will try to get that done tomorrow

Unless I've missed something, Ryssa should be ready.

I too think I am ready.

Opps ... got =mine= done ... will get my copy here updated today

I will take care of Lingo. Nep can fix anything I choose incorrectly for him when he gets back.

OK.

Ryssa - Looks good

Lingo - done

Luminmorn - I didn't see the specific Oath listed, but derived you took "Oath of the Ancients" from the Oath Powers listed. Note you have one item listed incorrectly. You wrote: "Turn Fey and their friends", it is actually "Turn Fey and Fiends". (I made those updates) Also note you may choose another 1st level spell for the day since you gained a new one.

Balthazar - Still outstanding

Bern - You gained a new spell for 3rd level so you may pick a new one for your list

Balthazar done now.

Oath of the Ancients, it is there someplace in the writing. Oh cool. Thanks
As far as a new spell. I will take a look. I didn't have the book handy, and frankly he will likely use it as a cure light or as a smite, so it wasn't terribly crucial.

I will add Detect Poison and Disease. That fits with his concept.

Ken - Just a note that neither of the two 2nd level spells you picked are Abjurations. While it is not required for you to pick Abjurations, be aware that your Arcane Ward power can only be used (and only re-powers) when you cast Abjuration spells.

If you want to swap a spell, the only 2nd Level Abjuration listed is Arcane Lock (Which may explain why you didn't pick it. It's not bad, a sort of improved Hold Portal, but I can see why you might not choose it among your top 2).

Yeap, I chose the more useful spells.

Yeah ... still thinking on spells and ... at least in the short term ... the most likely need will be for the cure <weg>

OK. We're ready to go again. New post coming up.

Still away but zeim, you can ghost for me, I'm sure.

BTW Nivek dropped out. He just wasn't into DnD that's not FTF. I posted a notice to see if someone wants to take over Karok. Gypsy also contracted Dugan who's had RL issues and he's reading to catch up,

And in the Z thread, now that you have found the Goblin you partially went here to find, no one remembers why or is asking him the questions you were supposed to be asking him.

I do, but it wouldn't be fair for me to be too overt with my hints

I would, but we still have foes hanging about, clearly that is =way= more important that talking to a damned dirty stinking goblin <weg>

Wait. What? Have no clue eye...

You're right... I've forgotten and I don't see anything in the quests, people, whatever post that reminds me...

If Jaliera notices the sword, she will collect it with the idea of passing it on to her mentor if others are not interested.

Gypsy - actually Kallista has it, once Kriv rejected using it. She's holding it for now, but if someone wants to wield it she'll give it to them.

Don't do it! It is cursed. Missed more with that sword than my regular blade.

OK, we're back to the same problem with the File Manager. The last image I loaded using the File Manager is 214kb and it won't display in the thread. It's the same size as the one I loaded a couple of days ago that did display......

.....so I edited the image down to 188kb and it now does display. Did we reset the File Size Limit back to 200kb?

Just checked and the limit is still 1 meg for attachments. But it may be 200k is a limit for images to display 'in-line' ... or ... it may be a 'width' (in pixels) issue ... I am not sure. Lemme look into it, although Pak is kind-a busy getting the pending site update sorted and done, so not sure how quickly I will get an answer.

Thanks. I am mostly interested in the "in-message" display of file attachments. I have noted a size restriction that is pretty small (200kb is fairly small IMO).

Yeah, will be getting with Pak on this when he has a free moment. Once I know the limits and the details, I will let you know what they are and ... maybe ... why they are what they are ( because this awesome software is written and maintained by others, we =may= not be able to get 'reasons' <shrug> )

OK amigos, I'm preparing for a 20th level adventure to the Jewelled Isle of Ibiza, leaving tomorrow night and back Tuesday 2 June. Dragons will be plundered, treasure will be slain and half-orcs shall be made whole!

Boy, sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you <g>

Good luck!

I'm back and catching up. Went mostly according to plan, though no-one could prepare me for the Ninja-Hookers of San An!

OOoooo where do I find =those=?!?!!? <giggle>

Photos of them seem obligatory...

=I= think so <weg>

Pfff, you don't just whip out your smartphone and snap a Ninja-Hooker of San An! They're too damn fast.

Seriously, we were walking back from the Sunset Strip, down by the seafront, and like school boys we took a shortcut down by the quayside, just outside of the street light.

Next thing we know, we hear, "Want sex!?" and I was like "You mean right now, or in general?", suddenly this hooker comes cartwheeling out of the shadows. Yes. Cartwheeling. And wearing an all black catsuit like the Black Widow or something. She grabs my balls, shamelessly, and asks again, "Want sex?"

Meanwhile, another ninja-hooker in a catsuit drops down off of the roof of the nearby kiosk and I'm suddenly adopting my best Roger Moore karate stance, because shizzle was getting rizzle.

Two vs two seemed like a fair fight, but we didn't know how many more were lurking nearby, so we backed off into the light. They were pretty damned insistent though, calling after us, "Yes? No? Yes? No? Yes? No?"

They must've been high as freaking weather balloons; I wanted to retort, "What do you think, you crazy bitch!?" But instead muttered to my compadre, "Let's get the f*** outta here!"

And so we did.

<heh heh heh> Ahhhh, now that takes me back!

When GenCon was in downtown Milwaukee, we found out the hard way, you had to be careful where you went. If you were just two blocks in the wrong direction you were in the area 'they' ... 'worked'. A friend and I found out when we took what we thought would be a short cut to a fine dining establishment that someone at the convention center told us about <shudder> However these were just plain working girls. They seemed particularly confused that we were not 'cruisin' in a car <chuckle>

It's all part of the experience

Yeah <chuckle>

Weds & Thurs nights are bridge so it will be Fri earliest before I can update my sheet.. but thanks!

No problem.
1 heart
2 spades (skip bid)
4 clubs (Gerber - asking for aces)
4 hearts (Gerber response - I have 2)
4 NT (Blackwood* as part of the Zeim convention - asking for kings)
5 diamonds (I have 1 king)

*Zeim invented the Gerber to Blackwood shift!

Sorry missed the bridge reply, we play Roman Keycard Blackwood, preferring to use 4 clubs as either natural or for cue bidding.

OK, I have updated Jaliera's sheet. I presume I can cast spells now?

I've updated as well, thanks!

Always used to play "Weak No Trump":

1NT (12-14 points, no convenient bid)

We play that too!

None of my partners ever wanted to do any kind of precision bidding

The argument against it has always been that you give away too much information to the opponents. Most of the bids required "alerts" (when used in bridge clubs), where you have to explain to the opponents exactly what your partner's bid meant. It could help in their defense if they have a better idea of what you hold in your hand.

I found, though, that the opponents who were good didn't really need that help and those that were bad didn't know how to use it. So having a clearer idea of what my partner held gave us a better shot at finding the right contract.

Zeim, I think that you have captured the true essence of bridge <chuckle>

Is that brief moment long enough to cast a spell, Nep?

If you mean "to target" whatever it was, no. If it's personal, yes.

Then no. Thankee.

What part of casting a cantrip at the bugbear constituted not attacking it?

Just me blanking on the entire thing. Will correct.

So, jumping in D&D 5E. Ah, I remember what a bowl of trifle it was in 3E!

In 5E, do I have it correct that with a Strength 10, you can running long jump 10 feet? If so, how wide is the chasm? Are those 5 foot squares on the map?

All squares are 5' squares.
It is a doable leap.

Weeeee!!

I hope you don't need to jump over too many fools. It cuts your distance it seems......

I only just spotted that! Brilliant!

Gypsy - If you were playing in my thread I'd give you bonus exps. Someone who read the game notes minutia about the missions!

Actually I remembered.. Jaliera cares about the small people!

It's safe to say that Kriv doesn't, making the reminder highly relevant.

I agree with Zeim that credit is due. There actually is something for that ... inspiration points! So Gypsy, the next time you have a roll to make, that you really want to make, roll with advantage (just announce it in advance).

It seemed to me that the foray into this place would seem more like a break-in to a private home and not very hero-like. If you were to find actual proof of wrong-doing, then perspective would change, wouldn't it?

Thanks!

Do any of the less evil party members have any compunctions against Kriv slowly mutilating the wizard? Speak now or live with the consequences.

I've had a comment to make for some time but haven't wanted to interfere with the Party.

Can Kriv roll history to get the significance of the password?

Sure. It's always good to throw the dice when you ask the question. It saves a post

Hey all. I'm away in Majorca until Saturday, so can someone ghost me if need be? I nominate AJ. All you have to do is act drunk and irresponsible. You're the perfect man for the job!

Irresponsible, sure. However, I swear to drunk I am not God.

I don't have a drinking problem...

I drink...I get drunk...I fall down, no problem!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUYdhzJ9l0U

They'll make anything a YouTube video, won't they

On a more serious note (and I've been adjudicating this wrong), there is no "DELAY" action. As per Jeremy Crawford (one of the head honchos of DnD v5):



See WOTC Rules Answers for more info.

Except that the GM has been given the ... power? ... to 'adjust' things in what ever way makes things more fun for the players <wink>

Having said that, I disagree on almost every point that the fellow giving the 'bad' answer raised <chuckle>

So if you take the "Ready" action and say, for example, "when the Ogre steps out the door I shoot him with an arrow", then even though your action is taking place later on in the round your place in the Initiative order doesn't change?

How is the readied action: "After Fred (the last pc in the initiative order) goes I will fire my bow" any different than delaying?

The difference in your example, Zeim, is that (in the previous version of) the 'Delay' action did not require any expression of what would cause or when you wanted to come back into the order. Ready requires a declaration of what you are 'waiting for'.

I am not sure that should make a difference, but that may just be me <g>

I totally understand Crawford. What it eliminates is chaos for inexperienced DMs. It's a pain even for experienced DMs. The only real difference is that you must declare what you are going to do on your turn. You can't say "I'll wait to see how this all unfolds before deciding what to do".

I used the ready action for Lingo in Gencon as a standard operating procedure. Lingo never jumped into a melee first even though he had initiative most of the time. His "readied action" was to fire an arrow at the first enemy that had one of Lingo's allies adjacent to the target. This was to take advantage of his sneak dice. Often times it would be the Amnon's imp Able that was the ally.

Sorry, I don't see 'delay' as a problem for GMs that have had any experience running ... or maybe it is just because I am such an =extraordinary= GM <chuckle>

A great 'solution' to the 'problem' Nep <wink>

Mike,
Most of the games I play in have good to excellent experienced DMs. I played in a game at Gencon with a DM that reminded me how lucky I was with my DMs. He had trouble handling initiative.

Only correction to your post a couple up, Nep, is according to how I read what you wrote you don't "jump back in" to the order anymore. You always go on your initiative roll, even if you "Ready an action" that lets you go later in the round. You never give up your spot.

Not a correction - exactly what I said. You must declare your action on your turn. Your turn in the order doesn't ever change. But you can give up your spot.

If, in my example, no ally moves next to an enemy, Lingo's trigger never occurs and he loses his triggered action for the round.

I can see how it simplifies things mechanically. Honestly I think it isn't that big a,deal. But I get the purity of intention, which they obviously were going for.

Yes, I can see how that might make things easier for folks that write their combat initiative order down on paper or a board. I have seen a lot of 'contraptions' designed to deal with that in the previous versions when readied/delayed changed the order. I just used 3x5 cards which can easily be rearranged to deal with that <shrug>

And I will admit that the way 'readied' actions work in this version ... leaving initiative order unchanged is not 'unreasonable' ... just different from what I have been doing for =many= years. Old farts hate change <wink> So I don't =really= mind that change.

The loss of delay seems ... arbitrary? ... unreasonable? ... maybe 'unexplained' is the best term since there =could= be a reason for it that I have not heard about. In any event, since that is the new reality, I guess I will need to accept it as well <g>

I am away for a vacation with some internet access for the next 9 days. Ghost my character if needed.

Cool, enjoy, Dugan. Going anywhere nice?

Just an FYI for the "N" game folks, I made a mistake by saying Jaliera goes instead of Kallista goes. Because of my mistake I have to delete a bunch of posts and do a complete rewind. Zeim (of course) pulled out the big canons and that happens before Jaliera fires her arrow and calls for help, before the ruffians attack, before Chandan hears anything. It doesn't pay to try and cobble things together and since Jaliera missed on her attack, we'll just rewind.

Sorry. My fault.

OK, so since we're running this as an open test/pilot I have a question for the group.

In earlier versions of D&D once you failed at a roll (like Open Locks) you could not try again until you gained a level.

In 5e I am not sure if you can just try and try and try until you roll the number you need, but it seems to be a bit unbalanced to allow that as what's the point of rolling then? All it is then is not IF you succeed, but how many rolls it takes until you eventually get what you need.

It's not that important whether or not Lingo can open the lock on the door, but I wanted to get a consensus ruling (or someone who can find it in the books).

Personally if there is no pressure, time or something else, just let the PC do it. Not everything needs a roll. But then I am a different sort of a GM as I am sure everyone has noticed from some of my other posts.

I'd take the 13th Age approach. Fail forward.

If the PCs are going to smash down the door anyway, if the lock's not successfully picked, you might as well give the rogue a bit of limelight, have them pick the lock. The failure can effect something else. The monsters on the other side get a first round situational bonus, frex.

I have never thought that 'fail once and you were done' rule made sense for everything. For the lock pick example, it feels like saying that if you missed hitting the orc with the first swing of your axe then you cannot try to hit that orc again ... until you level. <shrug>

Now I think it =does= make sense for other things, though. I can see it applying to knowledge rolls, for example. You just don't have that 'key bit of knowledge' and won't until 'learn more'.

It's a great question but it's addressed clearly in the rules. Page 237 of the DMG:

Neptune, just to let you know I would have done things differently had I known I could not take the swords away from the skeletons.

An old post led me to believe the skeletons stopped before they laid their hands on swords lying on the ground.



But leave things as it is, and we'll play it thru.

Sorry about that. You'll finish them off in no time. This post of mine could have been phrased better. "The skeleton's hands moved towards the hilts of the swords which they wore on their waist." would have been a better way to phrase it.

What is the situation with regard to healing in our group? Thanks!

Davroar has used up 3 of his 6 spells since entering the Redbrand hideout. I remember someone had one or two healing potions we found, but not sure if they were consumed at one point.

Jaliera has two healing potions, Kriv has one. By my count.

Kallista has 2 as well.

Thanks! But we have an ability to heal ourselves once or twice a day. Neptune did explain it earlier but I have read through 20+ pages of OOC without finding it! Hoping that Neptune can repeat it and also know what we have used today?

You have "Hit Dice" and I'll have to look back to see how many you have used. Every player has as many "hit dice" as levels. So you all have 2. You use them in a short rest and get them back after a long rest. The type of dice varies by class.

We have 3.

Zeim, would you happen to know where Seyja stands at the moment as to healing spells without me having to go back and calculate?

Seyja?

Off the top of my head, say 1 2nd and 1 1st, unless you want to go back and check?

Correct. 3. Isn't Seyja a different game?

Oops... <slaps forehead> I'd just done a Seyja post...

Ryssa, of course.

I have been there ... and I am thinking I may have to make all my characters have the same name from now on <weg>

Oh that will positively be clear.

I'm away on business this week, peeps, but I will try to post!

I was attempting to change the description of my Davroar character in the gallery to update things he has after resupply, but find that there is no edit button for my image. Can anyone help, please?

Hi Dugan,

Your sheet is an image, all the sheets are to go into the Gallery. So you have to change the document you have at home and then reupload it to replace the one that is currently there.

The FAQ for this can be found here http://www.dreamlyrics.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=531107#Post531107

Busy today & tomorrow but should be able to update my sheet on Wednesday

The ability to edit posts expires after about 6 months. But try now Dugan.

Likewise, I've fallen afoul of the 6-month cutoff by 20 days.

OK ... this 'time limit' for gallery posts has come up a couple of times before this.

So it seems like a good time to go over the problem with TPTB and see if it is possible to change the limit ... should we change this in general ... or decide on a case by case basis. If anyone has an opinion, you can PM me or share it here.

Iirc we did a review a few years back, but aye, you can get around it by reposting in the same thread and asking a mod to remove the original content, essentially what I've just done with Chandan and Davroar in the Gallery here.

What is the purpose of having a time limit on editing? I don't see how it helps anything.

It makes little sense unless you consider that this UBB software is used for other types of BBS's.

Thank you Nemarsde, I have updated my pc with some new gear and figured out total weight carried in case we are travelling by foot.

Thanks Neil.

By the way, and this is just me (but I can't imagine Zeim thinks differently), I won't be penalizing you for weight. I don't have the patience to audit every PC for this. This does not mean that you can pick up a large object like a tapestry or a statue, and expect it to not be cumbersome. Similarly, I'm not going to focus on replenishment of arrows. I assume that you pluck them out of your victims and eventually replenish them during "downtime".

Speaking of downtime, if any of you want to take advantage of "downtime", see pages 4-6 of this "official" Adventurer's League Players Guide and we'll discuss.

I can tell you that the software we use is 'commercial' and in use by a =lot= of other folks ( otherwise the company would have gone out of business <wink> ) So I suspect that these 'features' are in response to requests to other users.

Having said that, I suspect that many of our settings are 'defaults' ... except in those places where we have had issues and have needed to make adjustments. This seems to be one of those times when we need take a look at those defaults and decide if they need to change <g>

Hope that helps

Agreed with Neptune's last post.

Happy that we extend the edit limit. Never set it in the first place! If we can remove it, great! If not maybe 5 years?

Neil/Mike, want to do the honours?

As to downtime, I think we are all concerned about Gundren and would not want to spend long doing other things. However, Jaliera has a Find familiar spell and that could prove a useful addition. In the book it says an hour casting time. Happy to discuss this in character with the others, particularly Davroar as she wants to leran from him what creature might be her best choice. I assume I could do this at a camp one evening?

Gypsy,
You're likely to spend the night in town anyway. If you wanted to summon a familiar, I would say go at it as it wouldn't alter the story or outcome.

OK will do!

I will set 'users' for the same limit as admins and moderators. Do we want to do that globally or just when needed Gypsy?

If it is globally, maybe Pac can write a script rather than going into permissions for every forum here.

Pak is away in Australia, so no joy there.

Didn't realise it was a forum setting.

OK, lets change the template forum we use for Galleries so that all future ones will be on the new limit. Then change LMP as they need it. Then over the next few weeks, change the limits on all gallery forums. Will take less time that writing a script and likely to be more accurate!

That sound OK?

Aye, UBB.threads is commercial forum software, but all forums have the same options available.

Iirc, the idea behind retaining the edit limit was to set posts in stone after a period in time. This was prompted by a past user going back and deleting the content out of their old posts, which screwed over everyone else participating in the threads. I can't recall what their motive was, but the result was definitely detrimental.

Neptune. Interesting link! Thanks.

Chandan would spend most downtime in drinking, sleeping and meditating, but yeah, his main objective is rescuing Gundren and he wouldn't voluntarily deviate from this.

OK .. I will change it here and in the gallery templates <g>

OK ... this gallery is fixed. Can someone check and see if the 'change' is retroactive?

Also, Gypsy, do we want to create a 'non-BCD' gallery forum template?

Confirmed, gallery is fully operational.

Thanks AJ

Character sheet written in a form easier to edit in future, also easier to read!

Looks good. Were you planning to cast the Find Familiar spell?

I can be familiar ... just ask the blonde in the bar last night <chuckle>

Yes, this evening. Going to chat to Davroar once we have finished shopping. Has to be dusk as I am going for an owl. Plan is to use it for longer range scouting when we camp and as my eyes in a dungeon.

Gypsy, Nice work on your sheet. I liked the handwritten one too

I posted the owl's stats for you.

Thanks!

OK peeps, I'm away on business for the week, but should be back and posting at the weekend. Have fun!

Am leaving Saturday morning for a 2 week business trip to Barcelona. I don't expect to have a lot of time to post, so please ghost for me while I'm gone if needed.

For those in the Z game, I need a direction (I think I'm waiting for a Lingo post), but the game may be really slow for a couple of weeks.

Nep - From the description you gave for the human we just met by the Old Owl Well, do we recognize who he might be or where he might come from? Or are none of us familiar?

In the Z game, same comment. Now that the chest has been found and claimed, I need a direction.

Zeim, my answer is in the game thread.

I'm in Sweden until Wednesday, peeps, so might not be caught up until Friday. In the meantime, if evil rears its head and needs whacking, Chandan will whack it.

Nice one!! Hope you get a bit of time to enjoy the location!!

I doubt it very much, but the thought is appreciated, Mike.

Looking forward to getting back actually. Now I'm not GMing (HHE or ftf) I've got Deus Ex: Human Revolution to finish off, then Home Front. I've got season 4 of Ripper Street to finish off... I'm not sure my couch will recognise my backside when I sit on it, it's been so long.

Right, I'm away for the week... more gas training. Be back online and posting on Saturday, though I might try posting from the smartphone during the week. Apologies for any weird autocorrect anomalies in advance.

Okay, I'm looking forward to some embarrassing auto-corrections.

But is it good gas ... or bad gas?? <g>

Oh it was bad gas, believe me. But I'm through, Gas Safe registered. Five solid days of exams and tests, so it took me a while longer than anticipated to get my gaming head back on. But I'm here now!

Yippeeeee!!!!

Welcome back!

Nice heal roll.

Gypsy - A creature caught in a Web spell is considered to be "Restrained". That means all attacks against it have advantage so you get to make a second attack roll and keep the higher of your two rolls. It's attacks have disadvantage and it also has disadvantage on any Dexterity check it needs to make.

Citation for smoking out a cave to kill the occupants: https://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/V6/ST177.html

Hey peeps, I'm on holiday in Salcombe in Devon for the week. I know I know, what am I, seventy!? But the quiet and sea air should mean some good sleeps and a recharge of the batteries--- Hoping to get a week in Ibiza shortly

I'll still be posting, but I don't have a desk to sit at.

I love Devon!

Nep - Path indicated for Lingo is impossible. He has no choice but to skirt the edge of the woods along the path. The woods themselves are a tangle of impassable briers. If he chooses to not explore once he sees he cannot sneak through the woods we can assume he chooses not to explore. Just let me know.

Right, sorry about that, I'm back. Would've posted but realised I needed the scans saved on my NAS to work out my next move. I should really setup remote access (or just sync to the cloud).

Free storage like gmail/dropbox etc... is your friend.

Yeah, it's pure laziness that I haven't set it up yet. But hey, gives me something to do this week!

Well keep in mind that there are 'risks' with 'free' storage. It is free for a reason!!!! And the reasons are to =THEIR= benefit, not yours.

For game books and or game maps? I see no risk. I wouldn't make it my sole copy, but for easy of transfer between machines...

For more important stuff... depends.

Yeah, it =is= convenient <g> But they want to get 'info' about you so that they can either sell it ... or use it for targeted ads (depending on whose storage it is). Some folks really worry about that sort of thing. I don't have much to 'hide', so all the 'data collection' isn't something that I am particularly worried about ... although I =do= take steps to protect my passwords, my financial stuff and the like <g>

The key is to be 'informed' enough that you can make the right decision for your needs <wink>

Not to mention it's like the heroin dealer who gives it away to get you hooked and then suddenly, once you're dependent on it, it's no longer free.....

Absolutely, look at the growth in the mini-storage industry. It seems it is almost required to have a storage unit to go with your house and garage and ... We wouldn't want to actually get rid of stuff... would we?

I have been doing =just= that (getting rid of stuff) in association with my latest move ... I got rid of over 1,000 books, loads of other 'crap' I had been holding on to ... partly because this place is smaller, but also because I realized that I was just holding on to it to have it <g> Now I am divesting myself of all my worldly possessions (well a lot of them anyway <g>)

When I moved from CA to OR, I donated 32 cases of books to the library because I couldn't sell them, people just don't buy them at flea markets anymore. Believe me I tried, hard bounds for .25, paper backs for .10. I ended up giving away two books to kids in four flea market days. Gave up.

I also found four boxes in my garage that hadn't been opened in the 15 years I lived in that house. Moved in and set down. I opened them to make sure there wasn't anything valuable in them. When there wasn't and I had lived without them for 15 years, I donated all of them.

I still have way too much stuff. Trying to thin out my own stuff herd, but it is work. It is so much easier to accumulate than it is to discern away the excess.

I have tried. Wife is a pack rat. We still have the boys cribs and baby toys in the attic (they're 25 and 23 respectively). But I did sell about a dozen boxes of books to the local used book store. Got about $100 for them.

Just FYI, Dugan is moving, thought he might be back around now but that depends on connectivity.

Thanks. I was wondering about Dugan.

Re: getting rid of stuff. There's a whole section on Craig's list called "Free stuff". Put it out on the curb and watch it disappear.

The library will get the books I can't sell or give to friends <g> I already took one load of things there <g>

He's gone but I'll never forget him... Posted in honor of George Carlin but without anyone's permission.

Just a Place for My Stuff

Actually, this is just a place for my stuff, ya know? That's all; a little place for my stuff. That's all I want, that's all you need in life, is a little place for your stuff, ya know? I can see it on your table, everybody's got a little place for their stuff. This is my stuff, that's your stuff, that'll be his stuff over there.

That's all you need in life, a little place for your stuff. That's all your house is- a place to keep your stuff. If you didn't have so much stuff, you wouldn't need a house. You could just walk around all the time. A house is just a pile of stuff with a cover on it. You can see that when you're taking off in an airplane. You look down, you see everybody's got a little pile of stuff. All the little piles of stuff. And when you leave your house, you gotta lock it up. Wouldn't want somebody to come by and take some of your stuff. They always take the good stuff. They never bother with that crap you're saving. All they want is the shiny stuff. That's what your house is, a place to keep your stuff while you go out and get...more stuff! Sometimes you gotta move, gotta get a bigger house. Why? No room for your stuff anymore.

Did you ever notice when you go to somebody else's house, you never quite feel a hundred percent at home? You know why? No room for your stuff. Somebody else's stuff is all over the damn place! And if you stay overnight, unexpectedly, they give you a little bedroom to sleep in. Bedroom they haven't used in about eleven years. Someone died in it, eleven years ago. And they haven't moved any of his stuff! Right next to the bed there's usually a dresser or a bureau of some kind, and there's no room for your stuff on it. Somebody else's s*** is on the dresser. Have you noticed that their stuff is s*** and your s*** is stuff? God! And you say, "Get that s*** off of there and let me put my stuff down!"

Sometimes you leave your house to go on vacation. And you gotta take some of your stuff with you. Gotta take about two big suitcases full of stuff, when you go on vacation. You gotta take a smaller version of your house. It's the second version of your stuff. And you're gonna fly all the way to Honolulu. Gonna go across the continent, across half an ocean to Honolulu. You get down to the hotel room in Honolulu and you open up your suitcase and you put away all your stuff. "Here's a place here, put a little bit of stuff there, put some stuff here, put some stuff- you put your stuff there, I'll put some stuff- here's another place for stuff, look at this, I'll put some stuff here." And even though you're far away from home, you start to get used to it, you start to feel okay, because after all, you do have some of your stuff with you.

That's when your friend calls up from Maui, and says, "Hey, why don'tcha come over to Maui for the weekend and spend a couple of nights over here." Oh, no! Now what do I pack? Right, you've gotta pack an even smaller version of your stuff. The third version of your house. Just enough stuff to take to Maui for a coupla days. You get over to Maui- I mean you're really getting extended now, when you think about it. You got stuff all the way back on the mainland, you got stuff on another island, you got stuff on this island. I mean, supply lines are getting longer and harder to maintain.

You get over to your friend's house on Maui and he gives you a little place to sleep, a little bed right next to his windowsill or something. You put some of your stuff up there. You put your stuff up there. You got your Visine, you got your nail clippers, and you put everything up. It takes about an hour and a half, but after a while you finally feel okay, say, "All right, I got my nail clippers, I must be okay." That's when your friend says, "Aaaaay, I think tonight we'll go over the other side of the island, visit a pal of mine and maybe stay over." Aww, no. NOW what do you pack? Right- you gotta pack an even SMALLER version of your stuff. The fourth version of your house. Only the stuff you know you're gonna need. Money, keys, comb, wallet, lighter, hanky, pen, smokes, rubber and change. Well, only the stuff you HOPE you're gonna need.

Gone but not forgotten <g> I have always enjoyed Carlin's sense of humor. This one, in particular, really 'connected'. I remember hearing it many years ago <sigh> Sad to think that we won't hear anything new from him ... till after we join him 'over there'.

Yes a good one. But I use c*** for it, not s***.

Back on-line, but took another day to sort through my own stuff and get my pc put back together. Books and pictures still laying about the floors, but happy my main system came on without a burp.

Welcome back!

You had =much= better luck than I did Dugan!! <g>

Right, away again this week. Even more gas engineering training!! They really really want to make sure you don't blow anyone up or poison anyone. I'll be back at a desk on Friday.

Ummmm ... have they explained why that is important?? <g>

So everyone survived training, and now that I'm qualified to work on any liquid petroleum gas system I never want to see another one as long as I live.

Meanwhile, next week I'm in Dusseldorf, back at the desk and posting on Monday 5 Sep. So as I've written it, Chandan can be side-lined for the Agatha encounter.

I'm away again on 24 Sep, to Portland USA for two weeks. I think I'm staying at the Hilton so if I don't have a desk in my room, I should be able to arrange one, np.

You are =THE= proverbial 'busy boy' ... aren't you. Be sure to find time to relax!!

If need be I'll use Action Surge to deliver that last bit of obsequious flattery. No point keeping anything in reserve at this juncture.

From tomorrow I'm away and unlikely to be posting until 8 Oct. Iirc, Nep is also away over this time, so it shoud work out surprisingly convenient!

You guys are just such slackers!!! <g> Hope you have fun anyway <wink>

I am going to have to withdraw from the game. My new job has me too wrapped up and I need to cut back. Sorry guys, Balthazar had fun

We'll miss you, Ken. Hope the new job is a spectacular success.

Agreed! Good luck with that.

Sad news indeed <sigh> But hope things go well for you anyway <weg>

Best of luck Ken. Thanks for trying to struggle through.

Nep- With Nivek and now Ken dropping, is it time to consider combining groups into 1 party? I am sure you and I could work out how to continue to co-DM.

Best of luck with the job Ken!

And Zeim that sounds like a good idea!

Best of luck Ken!

Just been thinking, the two groups, how do we explain that we have both spoken to the banshee, both killed the orcs, both talked to the Red Wizard etc. If indeed we have. Not been reading the other thread.

Well we =could= try to rationalize some reason for us to run into each other and 'join forces'. Another possibility is that we just put the two groups together and move on.

I haven't been reading the other thread, either... I guess the co-GMs would just have to crush the two groups together and file off any of the parts which too obviously do not fit.

Other group has not spoken to the Banshee. They went to Thundertree to find the Druid (which the other group did not do), so actually the two groups each have different pieces of information that they can share.

The beginning stuff (Goblin cave and the Manor in town w/the Redcloaks) would be duplicated, but <shrug> we could just ignore that and move on.

I do need to chat with Nep about it. Best option might be for Lingo and Kallista to leave (there are easy in-game reasons they could do that) and then Nep and I share Balthazar as an npc (otherwise the party has no mage).

We'd have 2 fighters, a ranger, a rogue, a cleric, a druid, a monk, and an npc mage. Alternatively either Kriv or Luminmorn becomes a mage and we let Balthazar go.

Again, I need to chat with Nep, but just out of curiosity, Pande/AJ, are either of you interested in switching class to a mage/warlock/sorceror type?

Although, actually, we might be OK, magic-wise, since Kriv has Mage spells and Luminmorn has Clerical spells, so not having a pure mage is not critical.

I am pretty much OK with what ever works for the group <g>

Not only Kriv but Jaliera have spell access. It will be interesting to see if having two non-casters with their respective caster option can fill the caster space.

Good point.

Yeah, I'd collide the groups.

In-continuity, both groups are fast forwarded back to Phandelin and overnight at the inn.

The next morning they wake up as the new group. We pretend that the groups have always been working together, the absent characters had planned to leave early to pursue X objective.*

So none of the remaining characters are surprised and we can move on at full speed.

*"X objective" could be to escort Iarno back to Neverwinter, or pursue some urgent quest from Princes of the Apocalypse, which is basically a sequel to Lost Mine of Phandelver as illustrated in this flowchart.

Fast, seamless, makes sense in-continuity.

What we COULD do, is have them meet up. All it takes is for the N-Group to switch gears and instead of going to Phandelin, go to Thundertree. They can all meet there.

Thoughts?

Oh, and as far as co-DMing, Zeim and I are also co-DMing for our FTF pals. I think that when he's DMing for them, I'll run and when I'm DMing for them, I'll run.

Preparing for FTF is much more intense because we're playing high level and the module is very sand-boxy. Requires lots of prep.

If we want to start right away, I can cross off this current encounter and get the group to Thundertree.

Having them arrive just in time to help the others fight the dragon would be terrific timing. We could "arrange" for Lingo, Kallista, and Balthazar to not survive the encounter, just for in-game continuity. They could meet and discover Gundren hired two groups without telling anyone and ignore the other discontinuities.

If that works, I'll presume the group in my game agreed to go talk to the dragon with Favric's group and move them there and then I can run the encounter and alert the others when it is time to step on stage. I'll run a brief travelogue for them as they approach to tie things together.

Nep and I will work out the co-DM process after that.

How does that work?

Without Lingo or Kallista, the only magic user we have is Jaliera and being an arcane trickster means she's light on magic. Lingo can certainly go, but I can't see what we'll do otherwise.

One idea would be to kill off Lingo and Kallista but for you and I, Zeim, to share Balthazar.

I'd be inclined to include Phandelin in the fast forward, given the reason for going there was to drop off the quests, get the rewards and restock for the assault, with the healing potions in particular highlighted as a necessity. Thoughts?

Also, I'm quite impressed that both GMs managed to forget one magic user half-class from N-party, but different ones.

I thought I mentioned that Kriv was an Eldritch Knight? That was why, between he and Jaliera, plus a Druid, a Ranger, a Paladin and a Cleric I thought maybe there was enough magic to not need Balthazar or Kallista.

I think Z-group could wrap up Thundertree, N-group could wrap up the hobgoblin encounter, Then the merger take place in Phandelin.

I don't know how much more play-time Z-group have in Thundertree, but based on previous combats, N-group could take around 6 weeks to complete the hobgoblin encounter.

You did indeed mention Kriv as having magic, Z. Nep up there mentioned Jaleira as the only spellcaster. Neither of you remembered both.

Chandan isn't a spellcaster but I guess he can do one spell-like ability per day.

Actually, I was looking at the 5th Ed monk t'other day, and it struck me that the Monastic Traditions are bit uneven, since some are powered mostly by ki points and thus eat into a monk's core abilities, and others aren't, giving them considerably more milage.

Anyone know what the general feedback on the monk class has been like?

AJ. True. My bad. So many characters swimming in that thick cranium of mine. Kriv can cast a spell or two.

Are Jaliera and Kriv enough? Bern has a couple too. And 8 PCs is certainly a large party.

In previous editions, a couple of gishy types should have been plenty to fill that niche. (Less of an issue with 4th ed due to the attempts to eliminate the linear/quadratic split.) in 2nd ed you had dual/multiclass types, in 3rd, prestige classes (such as Eldritch Knight's namesake) and splatbook fighter-mage types such as Swordsages and Psychic Warriors which could definitely step up.

Finding out if this holds true for their 5th edition equivalent is entirely in keeping with the spirit of this game.

Yes, and if we remove Lingo, Kallista, and Balthazar we only have 7 pcs:

Kriv, Luminmorn, Bern, Jaliera, Davroar, Ryssa, and Chandan.

Neal - Here's a link to a thread about 5e Monks.

Nep and I have a friend who is playing a 5e Monk in our FTF game and he is a pretty good pc.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430328-The-Good-the-Bad-and-the-Monk-a-5e-Monk-guide

One idea that no one seems to have considered ... go ahead and retire Kriv as well and introduce a new, magic using PC ... perhaps bringing news, new 'instructions' or the like to the two groups <g>

It was mentioned at some point to retire either Kriv or Luminmorn and pull in a pure mage type.

If we are fighter heavy, I can easily swap around and play a mage. I might need some help with the mechanics and or setup, as I haven't done it in the new edition. I have always had a thing for Sorcerers and their ability to swap spells around, though I can't say I have ever played a Warlock. So either one could be interesting.

So I guess I am saying I am open to trying new things if that is the direction we want to go.

I am fine with whatever decision is made on joining the groups. Also even though my character is depending more and more on his shapechanging ways, he does have spells too - Just my 2 cents here.

I think we need a way forward that largely keeps the 'history' of the remaining characters intact. Though I am happy to fast forward to whatever point this meeting is to take place assuming we get our potions on route

We need to need each other for this to work well. If all now surplus characters die in the existing combats, we would be looking to recruit back in Phandelin. Likewise the other group may decide they need others two. So then meeting back in Phandelin, finding out that we are on the same quest, joining forces is the best solution. Maybe then we can go back to the other's combat to resolve it.

And I think ditching NPCs is a good idea, I'm sure we can manage without a mage.. and GMs can tweak encounters if needed.

Well something that occurred to me while I was thinking about this ... it is certainly possible that there were two different 'lairs' ... why would they all be in the same place when they had so much territory to plunder <weg> Since all the other 'events' were unique to each group, that would solve that problem. =IF= the decision is to bring a new PC as our main magic user, that character could have been sent to 'unite' out two groups for the next phase of the operation.

Ah OK, that concurs with my reading of it. Way of the Open Hand is really what distinguishes the monk. The other two Monastic Traditions make them a somewhat gimped version of another class.

I was shocked to read that WotC had changed Water Whip in an errata so it's now a full action. That would technically render it pointless! Why drag an enemy next to you or trip them, if you can't follow it up with an attack in the same round? Weird.

As it stands, I think a monk is best played a straightforward warrior monk, and for a flashy, anime-style hadoken monk, a player's probably better choosing the sorcerer class.

Everyone keep in mind that in 5e you are allowed to change everything about your pc, other than their name (why not their name I have no idea) up until you reach 4th level.

Everyone is 3rd. You can still move your statistics around, change classes, change backgrounds, change races, change anything you like. So, if Kriv wanted to become a Sorceror he could redo his whole pc to make it happen.

I'd be happy to work with you, Pande, if you're open to it. Otherwise I think there is enough secondary magic in the group to make up for the lack of a pure caster. Every single player can cast some sort of spell other than Chandan.

And Neil, if you want to tweak Chandan to go down the Way of the Open Hand, feel free. That is the path my friend took for his Monk in our FTF game.

IMO, the cleanest way to do this is:

1 - Have the Nep group bypass the current encounter and head towards Thundertree to look for the Druid
2 - Have them arrive just as the first group is involved with a dragon
3 - Have Lingo, Kallista, and Balthazar not survive that battle while the second group arrives just in the nick of time as re-enforcements
4 - Have both group compare notes, realize they are working on the same goal, that they need each other, and join together

The spellcaster issue (or anyone else who wishes to alter their pc) is completely allowed by the rules so if you are thinking such thoughts go right ahead and send Nep and I PMs and we'll work it out.

Well I think the merger will work out for me, because Chandan's shortfalls from not taking Way of the Open Hand won't be so deterimental to the rest of the party.

As long as we don't use the errata version of Water Whip, I don't mind Chandan as he is, it just means always saving ki points for Water Whips. A bit of a one trick pony, but at least it's a good trick.

Your call, Neal. Just making it clear you can try the other option if you choose.

Cheers Zeim, I appreciate that. Water Whip has proven an effective anti-ogre spray so far and Chandan is more of an all-rounder anyway. I think the other characters mostly forgive him if he's a bit rubbish at any one thing.

I am OK with your plan Zeim.

What makes sense is what you, the players, want to do. I agree with Zeim's plan, but the part that I'll underline in his plan, is to let players adjust their PC, if they so choose. I'll take the next step to redirect the PC's in the game I'm DMing.

I'm fine with Zeim's plan or with anything the other players want to go with.

Well just spent a few of minutes going over my character sheet and did't see anything that =I= think makes sense to change, but if anyone has any suggestions to make Bern more effective, I'd be willing to consider them.

Take your time. Figure that you'll be making any changes that you want to make AFTER you all deal with the dragon.

As long as we are diverted allowing us to collect those healing potions on the way. Happy to fast forward if that is the case.

We can assume that happened, as long as Nep doesn't mind.

BTW, it is good actually Nep and I will be co-DMing a single game shortly as I will be doing some international traveling for work between now and January/February (and maybe more after that) so I will be out of pocket quite a bit. Nep has also been busy at work recently so sharing a single game will be better for us I think.

That's good!

I will send you both a PM so we can talk about my most recent idea regarding a pure class mage of some sort.

Moved things along in the old thread and posted in the new one too!

So a question about 5e and tactics. In the instant of Luminmorn's current situation. How does it work, if he wanted to step to his right and line up the rank and file of cultists and breath a blast of lightning.

My guess, if I understand things. He would take attacks of opportunity as he moved away from 5 and 6 (the two cultists that attacked him and are engaged with him)?

I went ahead and posted a regular attack while I learn about this.

Pande - Yes. If you move away from a creature it gets an opportunity attack on you. However you can maneuver next to a creature for a better position, as long as you stay adjacent, and you don't give up an opportunity attack. So, IOW, you could run in circles around a creature without it getting an OA but as soon as you step back it would.

So in this example, he would take an OA from one of them and not the other. Of course some of them going to sleep may change things.
Thanks.

Depending on how far back he stepped, yes. If he wanted to get away from all adjacent foes, then all adjacent foes would get an OA as soon as he stepped away from them.

Now keep in mind that each person only gets one OA per round, so if they use it on one target they can't use it on another target in the same round.

Thanks, that helps too.

So, so far it seems that the two changes from prior versions causing the most confusion/issues are the change in combat-movement regarding OAs and the difference in spell casting (i.e. memorization versus spell slots.

In 5e it is no longer possible to move away from a foe, no matter how carefully you try to do so, without granting an OA (i.e. no more 5' step). Although you can maneuver around foes as long as you stay next to them the whole time. This has major effects on combat tactics.

For example, archers, once engaged by swordsmen must drop their bows and fight with hand-held weapons or else attack with disadvantage.

It also means that if your ally, 10+ feet away, is threatened, you can no longer move to help him without potentially exposing yourself to an OA from a foe next to you.

This puts more of a premium on tactical positioning at the beginning of a battle. For example, if your archers want to stay far away, to the rear, they risk being left by themselves and not having anyone else be able to help them IF some foes manage to reach them.

It also means that your Clerics take a risk if they move to the front to fight with hand-held weapons, the risk being they may not be able to cast Cure Wounds on wounded comrades behind them if those comrades are more than 5' away.

Additionally, if the enemy gets to move before you, you need to consider tactical positioning prior to combat beginning. i.e. A specific marching order that you always travel in.

This puts a premium on powers/spells (such as Misty Step and some Class Powers) that allow you to disengage from combat freely.

On the spell front, flexibility has been added. You are no longer completely constrained by specific spell memorizations, but instead can pick a "looser" list of spells and then choose from that list to use your spell slots on the fly. So whereas in the past if you wanted 2 Magic Missile spells as a Wizard you had to memorize 2, now you should never pick the same spell more than once for your list as you can always cast anything on that list if you have spell slots remaining.

Comments/thoughts?

I was worrying about that when Ryssa ended up on the front line here, Zeim. I sorta threw myself on the mercy of the court when I had her give up her attack in order to commit to defense in a round.

I remember that option from earlier editions...

Thanks for the expose' Zeim <g> I will have to try and keep all that in mind <g>

On the elimination of the 5' step, there's an action "disengage" that can be used to step away from a foe. Some classes (thieves) can use that as a bonus action. That's an example of the "class" action you noted.

Just to note another movement difference is that you can move-attack-move. This lets fighters, with multiple attacks, can kill orc#1 and then move to kill orc#2 in the same round.

As for the spellcasters, staying in the back, away from melee, is a strategic imperative that has it's roots in AD&D (1st Ed). To me it seems more natural.

This is a tough encounter (made tougher by the fact that the DM had decided to kill off 3 PC's) but as you go up levels in this version, you'll find that PC's are not as tough as they were in 3.5 or 4. Neither are the foes, really. It makes for shorter, more reasonable combats. When I say that PC's aren't as tough, I really mean that they don't have as many options as high level PC's in the other editions. This is really good because it makes the game easier to learn and it also makes running combats less of a chore.

Another word on spell casters. Although 5e doesn't describe PCs this way, the 4e concepts of striker, controller, leader and defender still apply. A party really needs controllers badly in this edition. That means spell caster that have area of effect spells; either evocations that blast away hordes of minions or other types of spells that limit movement (walls, for example). Controlling the "gameboard" (think chess) is vital.

I thank you for the exposition. I didn't get that nuance from reading the rules. Great to know.
Thanks

Just a bit of additional info on Disengage. It is a single full round action. That is the only thing you get to do ... IIRC.

Correct. You can Disengage to move away, but that becomes your action for the round, so no attacks or spells (except Bonus actions).

Happy New Year everyone!

Bah-kah-cha Zeim and everyone else as well <g>

Prospero Ano y Felicidad!

Good morning from 2017! I just wanted to note that I have a truly terrible hang-over and am blaming it on Chandan.

Long as ya got someone else ta blame it on, yer good! <g>

HNY

OK ... leveling up to 4th, HPs go up, two stat points get added ... class stuff ... anything else?

As to he 'loot' from our now 'deceased friends', I don't think anything there would be useful to Bern.

OK ... spent a couple of hours poking around the links in the Resources thread. Sadly, I couldn't anything that talks about Ranger features (specifically at 4th level). Can you point me to the right place ... if there are any new features ... and or choices to be made there? Thanks.

At 4th level you can also choose to take a Feat instead of the 2 stat points. Note that some of the Feats provide 1 stat point as well.

Hmmmm ... I'll take a look at the feats, but I am pretty sure I'm gonna stick with the two stat bumps <g>

So I think I am pretty much done (I hope <g>)

Here is a link to all the Core 5e Feats for everyone to look at. Remember you can choose to give up the 2 point stat bump and take one of these instead, as long as you meet the requirement listed for it.)

D&D 5e Core Rules Feats

MikeD - Here is a link to Ranger, but you are correct. At 4th level you get more HPs and the Stat Bump or Feat choice and that's all.

D&D 5e Ranger

Thanks Zeim.

OK ... new sheet up for Bern <g>

BTW, am discussing the possibility of someone completely changing class to Wizard/Sorceror/Warlock, in which case that person would likely be the best choice for the Staff. So lets see where things settle.

Have Favric and the cultists been searched?

I believe so. It is just the dragon's lair that we still need to 'ransack'. Where's Lingo when we need reminding about what's important in life <weg>

(OOC - Actually, the Cultists have not been searched yet. They have some normal equipment (Short Swords and Leather armour). Favric has a hand crossbow, a Short Sword, Studded Leather, and a Potion bottle (untested). They have a total of 90 gp among them.)

Ooops ... my mistake <g>

I think we can move forward with the proposed assignment of the Staff. The Player asking about Class change decided to stick with what they have.

You never got back to me on changing Chandan to a female high elf bard, Zeim?

Neil,
You asked that of me but you told me that Chandan was that only between the time he closes his eyes to sleep and opens them when he awakens.

Ah, now I remember, thanks Nep!

Dugan asked a great question. I don't remember where our characters are from. So I couldn't answer his question well enough, to personalize it with Luminmorn's piece.

You were all recruited in Neverwinter, a city along the Sword Coast in Faerun. You were all there as individuals, told to meet at an inn by Gundren, who you knew for various reasons (that I do not recall) where he laid out the mission.

I do not think we got into back stories so you can make up whatever you like. Use the map in the gallery (or a larger map of Faerun) if you need place names.

FWIW, Bern grew up in the Cormanthor Forrest in The Dale before he started wandering.

As a heads up. I think I will take Shield Master for Luminmorn, and one level of Warlock.

I am wondering about the choice of familiar with the Pact of Chain. Is it random or choice? Could be cool to have a dragon born with a pseudo dragon as a familiar.

The two pacts that seem best are Pact of the Tome for a few extra cantrips, and Pact of the Blade, because of how it fits. But the Pact of the Chain is entertaining in its own way.

Thinking ArchFey as his new patron.

It may not be the most mechanical of choices, but I think it could be very cool.

The question is Warlocks and armor and spells?

Classes work in conjunction with each other. So if you already have Heavy Armour Proficiency from Paladin then you can wear Heavy Armour and still cast Warlock spells.

Archfey is interesting as a Patron. My Warlock took Archfiend, but for Luminmorn that might not be a good option.

I would recommend taking Pact of the Blade, IF your intention is still that Luminmorn is mostly a fighter. However you don't gain any Warlock Pacts or Invocations until you reach 2nd/3rd level in Warlock, so you don't have to pick now.

Cool on all notes. Thanks.

My idea is that his Oath to the Ancients, and Archfey would go hand in hand, to making the more wild dragon, creation that I was imagining. If I were to play this character for a while, I would probably take this level of warlock, then try and get to 5 or 6 for the second attack in Paladin, and then a few more in Warlock.

I think blade pact fits best because yes, he will be melee oriented. Though having Eldritch Blast gives a nice range attack option.

Regarding smite, is it only for melee attacks? Or can it be used in combination with a Warlock spell? I am betting no, because it uses the expenditure of a spell slot, so I doubt it. But I thought I would ask.

Yes, you can only use spell slots for Smites on melee attacks.

Also, based on on-line research:

"Jeremy Crawford, the singular official source for all D&D 5e rules clarifications, has stated unequivocally that Warlock spell slots are usable with the Paladin's Divine Smite.

Also, the Player's Handbook errata states that you can use the spell slots gained from levels in other casting classes with the Paladin's Divine Smite."

That works.
Thanks.

Were you keeping him a Dragonborn, or were you looking to change races?

That is the biggest question. The munchkin says Tiefling might be a good choice. Also moving attributes around. Not sure it is necessary, but considering it. We also retain a Dragonborn, which means I could shift.

Are there any tieflings left? How does the race shift work in the fiction? A wavy bunch of lines go across the screen and voila new race? Or?

Kallista was the only Tiefling, and she was a Tiefling because it is one of the best races for Warlock or Sorceror. So no Tiefling's left.

In your case, you still have to balance the Paladin side of the equation. Tiefling makes for a better Warlock, but not sure if it makes for a good Paladin. Do you lose more from your Paladin class (still your main class) by changing to Iiefling than you lose from Warlock by remaining a Dragonborn? Not sure.

As for the fiction, yeah, wavy lines or something like that. The game system allows for you to change race, class, and stats any time you like up to 4th level so it is sort of expected that you just suddenly are different and no one even remembers you the way you used to be.

I think dragonborn stays in line with his goals best. First and foremost a paladin, and secondarily a warlock. So the +2 to Str, and +1 to Cha, fits with that goal, best.

Thanks for putting it in perspective.

You also may want to choose which Pact you take (once you are able to) based on the expectations of play.

It is not likely that you guys will go up more than 1 more level during the game (2 at absolute most), unless Neptune and I decide to roll this playtest into another module to keep going.

That said, if you eliminate the powers that you would never get because they are for level 6+, it might help you decide which Pact to take.

Thanks good way to help narrow down the choice.

The seperation between dragons and demons is a D&D ism though, isn't it. Within European folklore, it seems that dragons, devils, demons became thematically blended as the Middle Ages progressed. Dracul, dracula, etc. Huh, which throws in some undead themes too!

I guess what I'm saying is, a Tiefling with a Pact doesn't have to be thematically different to a Dragonborn with a Pact. Even visually, both could be scaly, horned, inhuman looking.

If I were the player, I'd be more concerned with explaining the loss of an iconic power (like a breath weapon) in-continuity. Not impossible though.

Well for my great concept, that I have been developing for a while now. The wild dragon aspect is an outgrowth of his dragon born aspect. Some dragon born grow wings and become full blow dragons. His evolution is a different tact, growing into something wild and more nature involved.

That is the general theme, which is why I was leaning towards staying as a dragon born. It also numerically makes sense because of Str and Cha as his bonuses.

Just as Pact of the Blade makes more sense than the other two for his evolution aspect. But trying to keep my mind open and listen to the experts about how things work, to try and craft in a direction that not only makes character sense, and mechanical sense.

Does that make sense? (Sorry couldn't resist. )

Yes, but as a playtest I wouldn't overly worry about the in-game change (were you to choose to change races).

The system allows it to happen and there is no requirement to explain how the Dragonborn Barbarian just turned into a Halfling Rogue. As far as everyone is concerned he has always been a Halfling Rogue and there never was a Dragonborn Barbarian.

Part of your change is to magically alter everyone's memories.

Thumbs up on the level up, by the by.

By the way, Zeim's headed off to China on business so I'll be picking up the DMing later this week. I happen to be on vacation so I have too much time on my hand.

Are all your PC's up to date?

I just need to add Ryssa's share of the dragon spoils to her sheet.

Later... okay now, GP added.

Yup ... just checked mine and fixed a typo <g>

Yes, updating the name of the axe.

Done sheet

A Bulette? Really? FWIW, 7 4th level characters is =NOT= the same as 4 7th levels (which is what the challenge rating is, BTW) ... especially since that thing can do up to 60 points of damage in a round, killing any one of =our= characters every round even if it only does average damage <sigh>

Nice knowin' y'all <wink>

Chandan's gonna make an omelette out of this bulette!

Actually, afaik it's only CR5 in D&D 5e, MikeD, so we should be able to take it. But we can tell ourselves afterwards it was CR7.

It was "THIS BIG!" Always growing every time we tell the tale. I like it. Course with a 0 on my imitative roll, I may be the first to volunteer to take the hit for the team.

Hmmmm ... so an 'ombulette' after combat feature <g>

Ahhh ... if you say so Neil. I don't have a 5 MM here <sigh>

(OOC - MikeD - Bulette is CR5 and does 30 points of damage on a hit. The D&D CR system assumes 4 pcs and the CR rating should be equal to the avg pc level. So a CR4 is a good encounter for 4 4th level pcs. A CR5 should not be overly hard for 7 4th level pcs, especially considering Chandan just did potentially 37 points, if it fails it's save, and missed on his attack! Not to mention you just fought off a Young Green Dragon, which is CR8.

Think positively. I am not here to kill you all, and even though Neptune has the moniker "Evil DM" among my FTF group, he isn't here to kill you either.)

Didn't realize they had nerfed one of the most awesome, fearsome monsters from the older versions so much ... but I =AM= glad in this particular situation <weg>

Yeah, the "Land Shark" is not what it used to be.

<sings> The old Land Shark it ain't what it used to be ... ain't what it used ta be ... </sing>

Yeah, but i'm in a onrey mood. I picked up my laptop by the screen and felt a crack. It was my screen and my laptop is unusable, i'm posting now with my iPad (many backup options) but, as I said, the mood is foul. This might call for a swarm of bullette's to help me let off some steam!

A swarm? Yay, our area effect spells just got better!

(Sympathies, may the repairs be swift and cheap.)

Does the Law of Inverse Ninjitsu apply to bulettes, Nep? If so, bring on the swarm!

If not...

Nep,

Got an HDMI port on the laptop? What about a TV <g> I have been using that with my laptop for a while so I can have a nice =big= screen <g>

Just a note, I will be leaving tomorrow for China. Nep was supposed to pick up with this encounter and then take over DMing for the Cragmaw Castle piece. If he can't post reliably it might be slow until both of us get back in a week or so.

Have fun in China! Hope you have some time to 'explore'. Oh, and where in China?

Beijing. Will be taking tours of the Forbidden City, Tienanmen Square, the Summer Palace, and the Great Wall while I am here. And, of course, I have to have Peking Duck at least once.

As long as you are there, eating, be sure to try as many things as you can ... not just to duck <wink>

Other than that, it sounds like you will get to see the most notable sites. Hopefully you will a chance to see some of the less well known, but just as interesting sites ... if not this time, maybe the next!!

We are in the Dominican republic which means that there are very few electronic shops around . My buddy has a Macbook and I'm aiting for everyone to get off of our spotty wifi so that I can log in remotely from that. I nrrd to change the mouse pointer because it's invisible rigt now on my iPad. If i do that, i'll be ok. No map making in cripple-mode so it'll morph into theater of the mind for the bullette army encounter.

Zeim,
I'm jealous. Enjoy that trip. I played golf today with a pilot that flies there a bit. From the way he described it, you'll love it! I'm having Chinese food for dinner in your honor.

For China, I'd quite like to visit Zhangjiajie Forest and Hong Kong, but that still sounds like a very special trip Zeim so enjoy and bon voyage!

MikeD, even the D&D 5e SRD is online for free now, monsters included. How do they make any money out of RPGs these days??

http://www.5esrd.com/

You will have to ask the publishers <wink>

i'm sure there are licensing fees and such that are how profits are made. Roll20, for instance, sells a few modules. But for all games, new purchaces are the meat and potatoes. How do you profil off of monopoly and scrabble? Once you have a set, you're typically not buying another.vit's new players that gobble up the merchandise and they probably don't know all the free ways to obtain material.

Think not? I have 3 or 4 monopoly sets ... all different. One is set in the UK ... i.e. the squares have names from England. There is the Millenium edition from 2000, on in a tin box called the '1935 commemorative edition' and so on. plus if you play often, they do wear out and parts get lost ... so sales continue <g>

Yes there is often a 'rapid growth' of a popular new product, but that usually 'settles' into a lower, but fairly consistent sales to new players and to players that have worn out their original volumes <g>

And you see that with things other than games <wink>

To be fair though the publish to make money element in most rpgs is a big motivating factor. That is why we get new editions. Yes sometimes they are better, and they fix things. But most are iterations of a new book so that the company gets a big pop in sales. It is just the way it works. I know I look at new editions and often buy them, so I support my addiction I mean hobby.

That only goes so far. For example, most of the 'D&D' games I see here are =not= 5th ed. There is just this one <g> A new release needs to have some reason for people to switch to it.

Did anyone ever run a 4th Ed game on DreamLyrics? It was current for 7 years, just as long as 3rd Ed. Longer, if you count 3.0 and 3.5 as separate editions.

I seem to recall one game, but can't put a name or GM to it.

Meanwhile, we continue to see new 3rd Ed games.

Oh I agree there are favorites. Doesn't change the premise. Just as some movies are more successful than others.

Absolutely. A lot of players enjoyed 4th Ed, and I think the system had a lot of good points, many of which the author incorporated in 13th Age. As it stands, 13th Age is probably my favourite version of D&D, even if it is unofficial.

I agree. 13th age is absolutely fabulous. I tend towards lighter games as far as mechanics, but I do seriously enjoy it.

I haven't played enough 5e to get a good feel for it. I know I could like it, certainly harkens back to its roots fairly well. Just is almost too vanilla. Yet here I am buying at least a few of the books.

That was the goal of 5th ed Pande, and compared to 3rd and 4th, they did do that. However there are games that are even simpler ... so did they go far enough?? <shrug>

If I get a chance this weekend, I will look at my old characters and see if I can find one that looks like 4th ed. I seem to recall one as well, but likewise can't remember the name.

13th Age! I'm a fan!

I really liked experience with 13th Age. And, in that 4th ed. game played here, I was one of three dwarven brothers... Hawz Stonecutter, I think.