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Please use this thread to continue the discussion between Kriv and Jaliera.

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Jaliera

She had considered, thought back through their adventures, gathered her thoughts.

"I cannot say I understand him or feel fully comfortable in his presence at all times but he does have redeeming features. Also I am not saying I remember everything we have been through together but there is I believe evidence in his favour."

She takes a breath.

"When we were entering the goblin hideaway, after several abortive tries, we ended up climbing the chimney into an area with a bugbear and goblin archers. You went first I seem to recall and I followed. Because of the opposition we couldn't easily move forward to let any of the others in to help. And it wasn't good. I know I felt we might die in there. The others were in the chimney or down below, hearing us struggle but unable to contribute. Chandan decide in his often unorthodox way to at least try to do something. He went another way and tried to draw off some of our opposition. You see this as desertion.. I see it as distraction. And one that took courage, striking out on his own, risking his life for us."

She nods softly, maybe appreciating more just what Chandan had risked.

"Then we have to consider the events that lead up to him attacking those who seemed to be surrendering, not something I approve of either, but think back."

"Our first encounter with Redbrands was in the street at the blockade. He fought well. Then we moved up the tunnel to the cave area with the chasm and encountered the Nothic. Karok had his mind affected and leapt into the chasm. Chandan was the first to go check on him. And when the Nothic appeared, Chandan was the first to move to attack, again with less concern for his own safety than ours. He was also first to attack it when it turned on us.. but he hadn't whilst it was supposedly on our side. He then followed it to make the final blow. Unbeknown to all of us this action took him into danger as brigands then attacked him. Injured, he still backed off when you called for him to do that."

There is a short pause whilst she gathers her breath and her thoughts, her mind following the events in the underground hide-out.

"Then after that fight, despite him being hurt, he lead the way to explore where the men had come from, his main concern to find the woodcutter's family. Again, and it could have been any of us, we were surprised by bugbears. At the front he again took the brunt of the attack. Moving back as we requested, he stayed in that position after the fight, watching our backs as we explored further and spotted activity across the chasm. He alerted us in a clever way by doing something silently to the torchlight.. and so we caught Iarno and the bugbear trying to escape. Despite being hurt, he leapt the chasm to avoid the rigged bridge and hurled his spear. You followed and both of them surrendered. The goblin also a prisoner previously betrayed us. And so did the bugbear later. He also was the first to realise that the wizard might have a familiar and alerted us to that danger."

She draws a breath.

"So faced with an almost continuous pattern of behaviour of betrayal following surrenders that were not genuine, don't you think that might have adversely affected his judgement along with his concern for the frightened woodcutter's family?"

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Kriv

He listens at length, intent upon her words, weighing them in the balance.

"Let us go over the three issues, as you have set out. Distraction over desertion, trying to draw off opposition... Opposition that was neither engaged against us nor actively seeking us. Opposition that was not a factor in the ongoing battle. Kallista, who might well have been able to aid us, went after him because of his... 'Unorthodox' action, but was only able to report his capture, which ended up costing us when we had to secure his release. His actions there, looked at from a pure gain and loss perspective, were a net negative for us all. Even if he meant well, the outcome of his intentions was a harmful one, and on a personal level I am disinclined to give him the benefit of the considerable doubt, even as I acknowledge your own desire to do so."

He paused, weighing up her postmortem on the business with the Redbrands.

"His judgment is indeed in question, and I believe you are correct when you say it may well have been shaped by his prior interactions. Our difference on this point is on how we view this: It is no mitigation, but rather an aggravation. It takes so little to twist his already suspect discernment into actively murdering unarmed prisoners. No-one else, despite being party to the same betrayals, felt as he did, or acted as he did, or approved of those actions he took. Far from winning the approval of the selfsame individuals he claimed such concern for, they were actively distressed and revolted by what he did, a state of affairs he seemed unfazed by and unapologetic for. His barbarity made him a monster in the eyes of those he professed to want to save, the family of the deceased woodcutter actively recoiling from his presence more than from their own captors. Even putting it as you have, a man driven to save others and mistrustful of false flag surrenders, his actions were spectacularly counterproductive, and he takes no responsibility for that."

He looked at her directly, cold eyes above a silent maw, and finished with,

"Then there is the third issue. The one for which you have not offered any defence or mitigation, no eulogy or advocacy. You saw him there, last night. In the face of accusations including of drunkenness, he ordered a round of drinks for us all, and when they were rejected, he gulped them all down without hesitation. Can you put that into a better light, can you frame it so that it is of benefit to our efforts to rescue Gundren? I grant you doubt over his desertion despite the outcome. I grant you mitigation for his murder of prisoners, again despite the outcome. What of this last issue?"

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Jaliera

"I agree that the outcome of his actions with the goblins did not end up with the best result but he was not to know that when he set out on his path. Again I believe he lacks experience with people, particularly when we are trying to coordinate and cooperate with each other. We might help him to get there quicker if we try to work with him?"

She shrugs. No guarantees in this life.

"As to his penchant for drink, I don't understand it. I don't drink at all because I can't take it and don't like what it does to some people. I feel it is a failing but at least he tends to be more of a fool than using it to fuel nastier traits which other do. So for the moment I tolerate it."

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Kriv

"Trying to 'work with him' in order to teach him how to coordinate and cooperate with others is insulting in the extreme, if you give it due thought. We would be taking this fully grown man, our senior in years and in life experience even if you combined our respective ages, and in effect reducing him to the social status of a toddler, holding his hand as we painstakingly coached him through fumbling attempts at 'Please', 'Thank-you' and 'Mother-may-I-kill-the-prisoners'."

He paused, and glanced back along their column, past the druid and tiefling, to their rearguard.

"Put yourself in his place. Wouldn't you find it patronising if a group of people half your age tried to teach you what you learnt at your mother's knee? Wouldn't you take offence at such interference? And that's not even taking into account his apparently wilful denial of context and subtext. I said earlier he hears but does not listen, and from what we've seen the most likely response to guidance would be for him to agree enthusiastically, smile politely, then go off and do his own thing, probably to our mutual detriment again. Everything he has said and done conforms to this appraisal, there has been no evidence of him modifying his behaviour due to advice or criticism."

He cast his eyes along the path ahead, looking at the trees for any likely ambush plots as he gathered his thoughts. He looked again to Jaliera and commented,

"There was a man, a village blacksmith, from a hamlet within the demesne of Norixius Keep. Very fond of his drink. One day, he was brought before my Father for judgement: In a drunken rage, he had severely wounded a couple of other men. His wife was there, and spoke in his defence, pleaded that he was a man of good character and loyal service, a devoted husband and father, and that this incident was completely out of character for him. But do you know what her strongest testimony was? Both her eyes were bruised and blackened. Her nose had bled, her lip had been split, and both were freshly scabbed; sometimes they pained her to the extent her eulogy degenerated into a near-inaudible lisp. She had tolerated his drinking for years, grown accustomed to it, gave in to the vile weakness of forgiving his wrongdoing, diminishing how much it changed him for the worse, glossed over how it became heavier, more frequent. Out of love, kindness and familial loyalty, she set aside his ever-increasing cruelties in a box made of denial and hope for change, and even at the end she stayed loyal to her delusions as to who he was, what he could be, instead of facing the pain of the stark reality. I am concerned that we, individually and collectively, may be falling into the same trap, the same slippery slope of toleration, acceptance and forgiveness with regard to our own violent drunkard."

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Jaliera

"I'm not sure what you are proposing here. Can you be clearer about your intentions? I am already concerned that our group is weaker than we started out. Karok leaving us has left us without a healer and another fighter. And there is more adversity ahead for sure."

She isn't sure how Chandan's age is so relevant other than it might take him longer to learn. She herself has barely enough experience of life to be making these arguments.

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Kriv

"My personal standpoint is that four committed individuals acting in concert is more effective than three with another constantly going off on wild tangents which require another individual, who would otherwise be on-task, to act as a nursemaid. There is a case to be made that his actions have trended towards being detrimental to our objectives on several occasions. It is usually held that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but if people are working at cross-purposes, then the whole can be less, too."

He paused, cold eyes weighing her, judging.

"It seems clear that you neither hold this view, nor are likely to be convinced of its merits. So be it, there is a practical, pragmatic solution, one which should make my own conduct more of use to the group, as well as smoothing over other issues. Let us draw up a formal compact, terms by which we all agree to be bound in support of our mission, the defeat of the Spider, the location of the Caves and the liberation of Gundren Rockspeaker."

"First point. We stay together, we fight together. No-one goes wandering off of their own cognizance without the group's prior agreement and consent. No-one stands to one side when the majority of the group is engaged in combat. I held a greater virtue in not desecrating a tomb rather than moving up on the Skeletons Davroar awoke, but my freely given word is the strongest bond I have, and so pledged, such incidents would not arise again. A corollary, no-one deliberately picks fights on their own, which covers both Chandan's prisoner assault and Davroar's action on the skeletons whilst the rest of the party was in a tactically disadvantageous position."

"Second point. We keep our wits about us. We do not indulge in intoxicants at all out in the field or on mission. We remain exceedingly moderate in their use even at rest, and avoid strong ones if at all possible. Let us be sober until Gundren is free, let us not wassail whilst he thirsts in a dungeon."

"Third point. An equal share for equal work. We all dedicate ourselves to the cause as best we are able, and do not place personal issues above the goals of the group. Any spoils of war or rewards are to be shared out as evenly as we can manage."

"Fourth Point. To betray the charter is to betray us all. Wilful rejection of these points after having agreed to them is grounds for censure, forfeiture of the earned share, and in extremis, expulsion."

"This, then, is my proposal. Does it sound like a reasonable way to bind our disparate assets into a more cohesive whole, to reduce friction and allow a greater effort to be focused on our tasks? Are there any omissions? Any overreaches?"

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Jaliera

"I don't have an issue with any of that personally but others may. Still worth a try I guess. If I have erred in the past it is from lack of experience rather than any lack of concern for the rest of our group. And I presume that we would need the majority to agree on any.. censure?"

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Kriv

"I would say a degree of automation would not be a bad thing, lest we end up like the Blacksmith's wife, digging desperately for excuses not to do what is necessary. If the rest of the group agrees on a need for censure, then let there be censure. If there is a clear and indisputable breach but no consensus, let it be a mark upon the record of the one in breach. Three such marks and there must be censure, each subsequent breach, let it be escalated."

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Jaliera

She frowns slightly.

"All sounds a little too regimented for my liking but let's see what the others say."

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Kriv

"Agreed. As it stands, we have collectively suffered for our sloppiness: We aim for the other side in order to get back to the middle ground. Chafing a little is for the best."


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